Discussion
Andy 308GTB said:
DuncanM said:
PGA Tour let the loyal players down horribly when they made the deal with the PiF. All that crap about unethical money was proven to be what we all knew it was, rubbish.
Jay Monahan is the problem, his days are numbered. My understanding is that he wouldn't even meet with the PIF when they expressed an interest in being involved in golf. I do think the scales have now been tipped and the Saudi's have bought a proffessional sport for what they consider to be pennies.I can't see myself watching it in the current format. But I think most people could come up with plenty of suggestions as to how it could be changed to be more palatable.
The ethical money argument is total hypocrisy.
The Ladies European Tour have backed away from a tie in with the LPGA. Aramaco look to be moving in on the LET.
Can't really see what Jay or anyone else could ever have done about the situation, was always a no win if your opponent has unlimited money and no need to turn a profit.
If he'd have negotiated immediately with LIV he surely would have been quickly out the door ignominiously with a golden parachute.
Hammersia said:
Andy 308GTB said:
DuncanM said:
PGA Tour let the loyal players down horribly when they made the deal with the PiF. All that crap about unethical money was proven to be what we all knew it was, rubbish.
Jay Monahan is the problem, his days are numbered. My understanding is that he wouldn't even meet with the PIF when they expressed an interest in being involved in golf. I do think the scales have now been tipped and the Saudi's have bought a proffessional sport for what they consider to be pennies.I can't see myself watching it in the current format. But I think most people could come up with plenty of suggestions as to how it could be changed to be more palatable.
The ethical money argument is total hypocrisy.
The Ladies European Tour have backed away from a tie in with the LPGA. Aramaco look to be moving in on the LET.
Can't really see what Jay or anyone else could ever have done about the situation, was always a no win if your opponent has unlimited money and no need to turn a profit.
If he'd have negotiated immediately with LIV he surely would have been quickly out the door ignominiously with a golden parachute.
My feeling is that his arrogance and self-importance have been major factors in the current situation.
DuncanM said:
I expect a female LIV league at some point, women's golf is very much on the rise.
Rory being much kinder about Rahm going, than he was about other players.
The LET is already doing a lot with Aramco. I could imagine this being extended, bigger prize money and incentives - to such an extent that the stars of the LPGA come to Europe. Totally agree that the Women's golf is on the rise. I went to Walton Heath this year for the AIG Women's Open and it was a great event. Rory being much kinder about Rahm going, than he was about other players.
Andy 308GTB said:
Hammersia said:
Andy 308GTB said:
DuncanM said:
PGA Tour let the loyal players down horribly when they made the deal with the PiF. All that crap about unethical money was proven to be what we all knew it was, rubbish.
Jay Monahan is the problem, his days are numbered. My understanding is that he wouldn't even meet with the PIF when they expressed an interest in being involved in golf. I do think the scales have now been tipped and the Saudi's have bought a proffessional sport for what they consider to be pennies.I can't see myself watching it in the current format. But I think most people could come up with plenty of suggestions as to how it could be changed to be more palatable.
The ethical money argument is total hypocrisy.
The Ladies European Tour have backed away from a tie in with the LPGA. Aramaco look to be moving in on the LET.
Can't really see what Jay or anyone else could ever have done about the situation, was always a no win if your opponent has unlimited money and no need to turn a profit.
If he'd have negotiated immediately with LIV he surely would have been quickly out the door ignominiously with a golden parachute.
My feeling is that his arrogance and self-importance have been major factors in the current situation.
I also don't see any evidence that LIV (Yasir Al-Rumayyan) would have wanted to just "buy" the existing tour. At the very least he'd have wanted multiple Saudi based events, and presumably others throughout the Middle East (look at boxing and soccerball). I'm sure he has no interest in the Valero Texas Open.
Andy 308GTB said:
The LET is already doing a lot with Aramco. I could imagine this being extended, bigger prize money and incentives - to such an extent that the stars of the LPGA come to Europe. Totally agree that the Women's golf is on the rise. I went to Walton Heath this year for the AIG Women's Open and it was a great event.
Cool man, I honestly think the best swings are now in the women's game, I could watch players like Korda, and Grant all day. I watched the women way back, when Woburn used to host the Women's British Open, and you could get tickets through weetabix tokens! Back then it was great to watch, imagine it's even better now.
Hammersia said:
If that would have been negotiating with Greg Norman, then he always wanted a "world" tour, and different formats, which is the opposite of what the PGA Tour is, a lot of the players don't seem to have passports.
I also don't see any evidence that LIV (Yasir Al-Rumayyan) would have wanted to just "buy" the existing tour. At the very least he'd have wanted multiple Saudi based events, and presumably others throughout the Middle East (look at boxing and soccerball). I'm sure he has no interest in the Valero Texas Open.
Control of competitive "World Golf" is entirely up for grabs. The PGA Tour is having its Emperors New Clothes moment. It's broke and its hegemony is probably ending.I also don't see any evidence that LIV (Yasir Al-Rumayyan) would have wanted to just "buy" the existing tour. At the very least he'd have wanted multiple Saudi based events, and presumably others throughout the Middle East (look at boxing and soccerball). I'm sure he has no interest in the Valero Texas Open.
The US game will always remain influential - huge base, college system etc etc. But the PGA Tour has done its best to shaft golf around the world. Golf isn't only played in US and Europe. There is huge growth potential elsewhere.
As for the Majors? Great history, but only so far back. It used to be the Open and US Open and the respective Amateur Championships. Now three of the "Majors" are in the US. Time for the Australian Open and an Asian equivalent to join the ranks. Lose the PGA.
Leithen said:
Hammersia said:
If that would have been negotiating with Greg Norman, then he always wanted a "world" tour, and different formats, which is the opposite of what the PGA Tour is, a lot of the players don't seem to have passports.
I also don't see any evidence that LIV (Yasir Al-Rumayyan) would have wanted to just "buy" the existing tour. At the very least he'd have wanted multiple Saudi based events, and presumably others throughout the Middle East (look at boxing and soccerball). I'm sure he has no interest in the Valero Texas Open.
Control of competitive "World Golf" is entirely up for grabs. The PGA Tour is having its Emperors New Clothes moment. It's broke and its hegemony is probably ending.I also don't see any evidence that LIV (Yasir Al-Rumayyan) would have wanted to just "buy" the existing tour. At the very least he'd have wanted multiple Saudi based events, and presumably others throughout the Middle East (look at boxing and soccerball). I'm sure he has no interest in the Valero Texas Open.
The US game will always remain influential - huge base, college system etc etc. But the PGA Tour has done its best to shaft golf around the world. Golf isn't only played in US and Europe. There is huge growth potential elsewhere.
As for the Majors? Great history, but only so far back. It used to be the Open and US Open and the respective Amateur Championships. Now three of the "Majors" are in the US. Time for the Australian Open and an Asian equivalent to join the ranks. Lose the PGA.
PGA is in turmoil. Jay Monaghan is a complete joke and has no credibility whatsoever, and the whole Tiger Woods thing is just cringe worthy. As for Rory, he is clearly a well spoken/clever individual, but saying yesterday that the European Ryder Cup rules will need to be rewritten to allow Rahm to play has made him look a fool, after advocating for the banning of those previously who left for LIV. It wouldn't shock me to see Rory leave either as its just all hot air now.
Saudi money has been involved in sports for significant periods of time now, so the whole blood money line doesn't wash for me. These are simply professional sports people doing what is their 'job' and like most people in employment, they will go where the money is as long as the terms associated suit.
The main issue I have with most who went to LIV is the way they tried to explain their reasoning, rather than just being honest, and saying 'its because of the money'. I think DJ got it right when he said he got paid a load of money to work less hours, so could do the other things he enjoyed more often. That is basically it. There is nothing wrong in admitting it.
Saudi money has been involved in sports for significant periods of time now, so the whole blood money line doesn't wash for me. These are simply professional sports people doing what is their 'job' and like most people in employment, they will go where the money is as long as the terms associated suit.
The main issue I have with most who went to LIV is the way they tried to explain their reasoning, rather than just being honest, and saying 'its because of the money'. I think DJ got it right when he said he got paid a load of money to work less hours, so could do the other things he enjoyed more often. That is basically it. There is nothing wrong in admitting it.
Hobo said:
The main issue I have with most who went to LIV is the way they tried to explain their reasoning, rather than just being honest, and saying 'its because of the money'.
Rahm has already said that he's moving to LIV because he's excited about the team format...They are paid employees and are saying what they are told to say. Graham McDowell didn't do himself any favours when he moved across.
Andy 308GTB said:
Hobo said:
The main issue I have with most who went to LIV is the way they tried to explain their reasoning, rather than just being honest, and saying 'its because of the money'.
Rahm has already said that he's moving to LIV because he's excited about the team format...They are paid employees and are saying what they are told to say. Graham McDowell didn't do himself any favours when he moved across.
Ashfordian said:
The big thing missing from the commentary is that he gets to be captain and and from what I understand and more importantly owner of one of the LIV teams. This is a long term future thing that could be worth a lot of money (think NFL team franchise) but also provides him with a resource to build a Spanish team over the long term, something you can tell Rahm actually wants to be involved in.
I’m not completely anti liv, but I always thought, and still do, that the team element is nonsense. That’s how Greg was trying to sell it to recruits, think of it like an IPL franchise etc.. I mean eh? They’re golfers. An individual sport where form comes and goes in an instant. Even if fans have favourites, it’s unlikely more than one is on the same team anyway. Ive been to liv at centurion last two years (as it was free) and the shirt shop was empty. Never seen a single spectator wearing a team jersey. (Probably partly because they were £90 or something)Ashfordian said:
With one exception, the only big name players who could move need to have the exemption into the majors. Strategically Hideki Matsuyama works very well for LIV and meets this criteria. The onne exemption I mentioned is Patrick Cantlay.
As to any others, it will be those nearing the end of their careers, eg Matt Kuchar or Gary Woodland
Im sure he’s a great chap but the problem with hideki is that he doesn’t speak English. If he goes to liv it won’t be for any type of massive guaranteeAs to any others, it will be those nearing the end of their careers, eg Matt Kuchar or Gary Woodland
I expect some sort of announcement on world rankings soon. Didn’t think there was a ban on the Ryder cup, didnt cupcake play the last one?
nordboy said:
Astounding hypocrisy from Rory, about Rahm going to LIV. I reckon he's now looking for his own payday.
The DP and PGA tours could very well just end up becoming the feeder series for the LIV tour?
That’s what made me laugh with Rory. Taking a hard line on the other players leaving for LIV not allowed to play in the Ryder cup, but when Rahm leaves he changes his tune The DP and PGA tours could very well just end up becoming the feeder series for the LIV tour?
milesgiles said:
I’m not completely anti liv, but I always thought, and still do, that the team element is nonsense. That’s how Greg was trying to sell it to recruits, think of it like an IPL franchise etc.. I mean eh? They’re golfers. An individual sport where form comes and goes in an instant. Even if fans have favourites, it’s unlikely more than one is on the same team anyway. Ive been to liv at centurion last two years (as it was free) and the shirt shop was empty. Never seen a single spectator wearing a team jersey. (Probably partly because they were £90 or something)
The team element needs time and to evolve. I suspect eventually it garner the national or region element to it but it is in its infancy. However it does maintain the interest in what is happening from a viewer, especially when the leader has a 6 shot lead with 9 holes to play, as was the case when Stenson won.I will never have any interest in the team merchandise, but the closest example to see which the is Cricket Hundred, shows it does work.
Personally I hope the team element overtakes the stroke play element on the LIV Tour. It could also easily evolve to include womens golf into the competition.
milesgiles said:
Ashfordian said:
With one exception, the only big name players who could move need to have the exemption into the majors. Strategically Hideki Matsuyama works very well for LIV and meets this criteria. The onne exemption I mentioned is Patrick Cantlay.
As to any others, it will be those nearing the end of their careers, eg Matt Kuchar or Gary Woodland
Im sure he’s a great chap but the problem with hideki is that he doesn’t speak English. If he goes to liv it won’t be for any type of massive guaranteeAs to any others, it will be those nearing the end of their careers, eg Matt Kuchar or Gary Woodland
I expect some sort of announcement on world rankings soon. Didn’t think there was a ban on the Ryder cup, didnt cupcake play the last one?
I agree on World Ranking points. The recent Hero Golf thing with its no-cut 20 man field had ranking points which demonstrates the hypocrisy of the current situation in golf.
On the Ryder Cup, Europe could restrict players if they were not a member of the European Tour as they own the European Ryder cup team. The US team is not owned by the PGA Tour but as a separate nation entity so any US player could be picked.
Edited by Ashfordian on Friday 8th December 14:46
From memory Hideki was offered £400m last year to move across but turned it down, so I do wonder if he is reconsidering. Would be a shame to see him go as he's one of my favourite golfers, but 400 mil is 400 mil.
Considering the PGA and LIV still have to agree on the framework agreement they were talking about and the reverse ferret in town from Rory etc I do wonder if Rahms move might end up being a good thing for golf overall, and be the start of building some bridges that were burnt over the last 18 months or so. Probably optimistic but let's hope eh?
Either way, the LIV UK event is at the JCB next year, and as that's a 45 minute drive away, I may have to get some tickets....
Considering the PGA and LIV still have to agree on the framework agreement they were talking about and the reverse ferret in town from Rory etc I do wonder if Rahms move might end up being a good thing for golf overall, and be the start of building some bridges that were burnt over the last 18 months or so. Probably optimistic but let's hope eh?
Either way, the LIV UK event is at the JCB next year, and as that's a 45 minute drive away, I may have to get some tickets....
Looking back, the PGA were screwed before the LIV concept was even put together - The Saudi's went into it playing some billion dollar chess game and the PGA (and the media, and us) didn't even realise what they were up against. The distraction of the format and the music, Rory being a brat, and Jay being a clown were just that - distracting from what was actually being done.
A player led / not for profit / slow moving old boys club vs proper money and cut throat business folks was only ever going to end one way. The players and ultimately the children of today will always follow the money of the future.
It was a pure money led play by the Saudis that was always going to end with the PGA losing. They want to own the whole of golf and they will. No amount of PGA complaining is going to stop it.
A more interesting question is that which other sports does this same tactic apply to. As we now have the model to take over a sport laid out in front of us - buy the stars and own the game. $3B to buy golf - a bargain!
A player led / not for profit / slow moving old boys club vs proper money and cut throat business folks was only ever going to end one way. The players and ultimately the children of today will always follow the money of the future.
It was a pure money led play by the Saudis that was always going to end with the PGA losing. They want to own the whole of golf and they will. No amount of PGA complaining is going to stop it.
A more interesting question is that which other sports does this same tactic apply to. As we now have the model to take over a sport laid out in front of us - buy the stars and own the game. $3B to buy golf - a bargain!
fat80b said:
A more interesting question is that which other sports does this same tactic apply to. As we now have the model to take over a sport laid out in front of us - buy the stars and own the game. $3B to buy golf - a bargain!
Football.First the Saudi's will ask for their teams to be included in the Champions League. This will be denied.
Then they will offer £1-2bn a year to each top team to play in a new Super League tournament. Because of who now owns most of the top teams, they will jump at this money and the Saudi's gain control of the biggest sport in the world. The media will not be in the position to try and squash this as they have tried to with LIV golf.
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