Cricket - England Ashes Tour - Winter 17-18
Discussion
tigerkoi said:
ferrisbueller said:
tigerkoi said:
Sure, at the time, for a one off game you’d have picked Cantona - on merit - but building for the future, the FFF cleared house and unknowns were developed to fill their space. It had to be done. And a concerted, clear plan for the future paid off in them winning in ‘98 and Euro 2000.
Henry?Zidane?
Who are you suggesting is coming through who fit the analogy?
No one can possibly know who the next ‘Zidane’ of English cricket will be - you’d have to be a mystic with a solid record of calls to know that. No one knew in 93/94 who the cast iron certainties were for the FFF. All they were certain about was that it was out with the old superstars and some years spent painfully trialling the new. And that paid off big.
If you go back and take the analogy in the original context, and for the sake of argument you agree with the assertion that a deep rebuild is required....then you’re going to have to spend some good time working through a lot of players to determine who might be the superstar of tomorrow. It’ll take time.
No one knows who has talent but might crumble under pressure. Or who has an enormous will to win that’s hidden behind modest capability, some missing coaching and an introvert nature.
But you’ve got to try. Otherwise you are handcuffed to the past saying ‘no one is good enough to take over yet, we’re doomed!’
Regardless, you're not talking about anything new with respect to building a team and having a strategy bring through new talent.
Gargamel said:
Good Post,
When you see the hoops that even a Juniors Volunteer coach has to go through to run a colts side though, you start to understand why many established clubs aren't able to get a decent colts side together.
Last season we had *lots* of juniors matches cancelled as there weren't enough players in the under 10's & 11's . Whereas in my football section I would have near 60 kids in those age groups..
We added a second u11 hardball team last year & had to close junior registrations as we were full... we are lucky to have so many enthusiastic volunteers in the junior section.When you see the hoops that even a Juniors Volunteer coach has to go through to run a colts side though, you start to understand why many established clubs aren't able to get a decent colts side together.
Last season we had *lots* of juniors matches cancelled as there weren't enough players in the under 10's & 11's . Whereas in my football section I would have near 60 kids in those age groups..
But there aren't so many clubs to play against these days. Mind you I always think a young cricketers education really starts when he or she starts playing cricket with the adult teams. I have no illusions that we're bringing through test players, but I hope we are doing something to promote enjoyment of the game and its survival.
Cheer up everybody!
Jofra Archer is in the BBL, ok T20, but if England wait for him to qualify, he should be in the team straight away. Overton I would keep to. He displays the right attitude, don't care if his "X-factor" is not as good as the others. Keep the leg spinner to, Go and watch Shane Warne's first few test matches, they weren't fantastic.
Seems the ball has a lot to answer for, Each country uses a different ball in their country. Australia aren't very good against swing bowling and England don't like all out speed.
Who do I support? No idea. I live here now, so I guess the home team.
It's all swings and roundabouts - Look at Australia in Rugby Union.
Jofra Archer is in the BBL, ok T20, but if England wait for him to qualify, he should be in the team straight away. Overton I would keep to. He displays the right attitude, don't care if his "X-factor" is not as good as the others. Keep the leg spinner to, Go and watch Shane Warne's first few test matches, they weren't fantastic.
Seems the ball has a lot to answer for, Each country uses a different ball in their country. Australia aren't very good against swing bowling and England don't like all out speed.
Who do I support? No idea. I live here now, so I guess the home team.
It's all swings and roundabouts - Look at Australia in Rugby Union.
English cricket - one of the issues is too many clubs.
Historically, every bloody village has one. Some can scrape together a second eleven as well - but the seconds might play 2 or 3 divisions below the first team, so not much option for dropping and promoting players. You then have too many average teams with the occasional good cricketer playing.
It woul dbe better for the standard if teams were combined, so fewer clubs full of good cricketers competing and having 4 grades with small steps between each. You can then have decent first team cricket and viable optionsn in the second team if someone is making rusn in 2s and someone is failign in the first team. What you get now is undroppable players in clubs because the gulf is too great to the second team.
This is also reflected in county crciket. Too many teams and too many average trundlers bowling dibby dobbly with an overseas quick at the other end. The 'journeyman seamer' flattered by helpful conditions and the Dukes ball. Compare to 6 Sheffield Shield teams in Aust. Not much room for trundlers. Half the county players in England would struggle in first grade cricket in Australia. You've sort of addressed this by having two divisions - but it still flatters many average cricketers who are good club palyers but not really first class cricketers.
That Eng have been so successful in recent Ashes contests is testament to the individuals on the park who have made it through despite the system - that and foreign coaches teaching your lot how to play hard cricket.
Historically, every bloody village has one. Some can scrape together a second eleven as well - but the seconds might play 2 or 3 divisions below the first team, so not much option for dropping and promoting players. You then have too many average teams with the occasional good cricketer playing.
It woul dbe better for the standard if teams were combined, so fewer clubs full of good cricketers competing and having 4 grades with small steps between each. You can then have decent first team cricket and viable optionsn in the second team if someone is making rusn in 2s and someone is failign in the first team. What you get now is undroppable players in clubs because the gulf is too great to the second team.
This is also reflected in county crciket. Too many teams and too many average trundlers bowling dibby dobbly with an overseas quick at the other end. The 'journeyman seamer' flattered by helpful conditions and the Dukes ball. Compare to 6 Sheffield Shield teams in Aust. Not much room for trundlers. Half the county players in England would struggle in first grade cricket in Australia. You've sort of addressed this by having two divisions - but it still flatters many average cricketers who are good club palyers but not really first class cricketers.
That Eng have been so successful in recent Ashes contests is testament to the individuals on the park who have made it through despite the system - that and foreign coaches teaching your lot how to play hard cricket.
johnfm said:
English cricket - one of the issues is too many clubs.
Historically, every bloody village has one. Some can scrape together a second eleven as well - but the seconds might play 2 or 3 divisions below the first team, so not much option for dropping and promoting players. You then have too many average teams with the occasional good cricketer playing.
It woul dbe better for the standard if teams were combined, so fewer clubs full of good cricketers competing and having 4 grades with small steps between each. You can then have decent first team cricket and viable optionsn in the second team if someone is making rusn in 2s and someone is failign in the first team. What you get now is undroppable players in clubs because the gulf is too great to the second team.
This is also reflected in county crciket. Too many teams and too many average trundlers bowling dibby dobbly with an overseas quick at the other end. The 'journeyman seamer' flattered by helpful conditions and the Dukes ball. Compare to 6 Sheffield Shield teams in Aust. Not much room for trundlers. Half the county players in England would struggle in first grade cricket in Australia. You've sort of addressed this by having two divisions - but it still flatters many average cricketers who are good club palyers but not really first class cricketers.
That Eng have been so successful in recent Ashes contests is testament to the individuals on the park who have made it through despite the system - that and foreign coaches teaching your lot how to play hard cricket.
Really fair comments and no argument from me. You’re right: very few English cricketers would make their mark in the Shield. What you’re also implying is that to raise the level of performance - to high - narrowing down the teams will only allow the best to come through. You’ve got to make the apex of the pyramid in any sport an elite setup. Otherwise it’s filled with dross.Historically, every bloody village has one. Some can scrape together a second eleven as well - but the seconds might play 2 or 3 divisions below the first team, so not much option for dropping and promoting players. You then have too many average teams with the occasional good cricketer playing.
It woul dbe better for the standard if teams were combined, so fewer clubs full of good cricketers competing and having 4 grades with small steps between each. You can then have decent first team cricket and viable optionsn in the second team if someone is making rusn in 2s and someone is failign in the first team. What you get now is undroppable players in clubs because the gulf is too great to the second team.
This is also reflected in county crciket. Too many teams and too many average trundlers bowling dibby dobbly with an overseas quick at the other end. The 'journeyman seamer' flattered by helpful conditions and the Dukes ball. Compare to 6 Sheffield Shield teams in Aust. Not much room for trundlers. Half the county players in England would struggle in first grade cricket in Australia. You've sort of addressed this by having two divisions - but it still flatters many average cricketers who are good club palyers but not really first class cricketers.
That Eng have been so successful in recent Ashes contests is testament to the individuals on the park who have made it through despite the system - that and foreign coaches teaching your lot how to play hard cricket.
I would say though that village cricket aside, the game is dying out so much at school level that I’m not sure it’s reversible. Sure, at public schools up and down the country, some are lucky enough to have even former Test players like Graeme Hick coaching, but even though you get the odd Stu Broad who’ll go from Oakham School into the professional game (he wasn’t going to do anything else though, let’s be honest), by and large it’s not something many parents are looking to encourage: after spending £30k a year to send your kid to an independent school, and then they turn around and see they want to forgo Uni and play for say Warwickshire on 16 grand, that’s a bitter pill for most!
We need the game to be back into the state schools and have local clubs make it easy for kids to walk in and play without the rigmarole that Gargamel mentioned.
Tough times. I hope it’s reversible. But with school fields being sold off, and like you say other sports pulling kids across, I’m not sure it will be.
The difficulty is the conflict between counties and real financial survival struggles - how many counties make a profit over £1m? not many and the one day game
the county game is now devalued in favour of the one day game is it brings in the tv money and the crowds - the county championship and feeder competition for the test team is now almost an after thought bookending the one day game in freezing May or rainy September.
clearly the current ECB strategy is prep for the world cup in 2019 and fair play if that is the chosen strategy but in order to do that, given the depth of the english game the test st up has suffered - I agree with vaughnie on this one. if the strategy fails then the plan has failed but at least it is a plan. pitches set up for 300+ runs rather than 20 wickets is harming our home test chances - watch out for the next ashes - it will be no swing bowling walkover.....considering the test venues selected for the next ashes.
re this ashes - for me the most dissapointing element was the bowling tactics. if couldn't bounce a team out we should be thinking the team pout - i saw almost zero variation in pace or line. no point in bowling short but hardly and yorkers, no variation - very dissapointing - where was the guile? the unexpected? batsmen did "ok" at times but were put to shame by the aussie team batting against an insipid unimaginative attack.
we have a long way to go in that arena and jimmy and broad are no spring chickens any more....
the county game is now devalued in favour of the one day game is it brings in the tv money and the crowds - the county championship and feeder competition for the test team is now almost an after thought bookending the one day game in freezing May or rainy September.
clearly the current ECB strategy is prep for the world cup in 2019 and fair play if that is the chosen strategy but in order to do that, given the depth of the english game the test st up has suffered - I agree with vaughnie on this one. if the strategy fails then the plan has failed but at least it is a plan. pitches set up for 300+ runs rather than 20 wickets is harming our home test chances - watch out for the next ashes - it will be no swing bowling walkover.....considering the test venues selected for the next ashes.
re this ashes - for me the most dissapointing element was the bowling tactics. if couldn't bounce a team out we should be thinking the team pout - i saw almost zero variation in pace or line. no point in bowling short but hardly and yorkers, no variation - very dissapointing - where was the guile? the unexpected? batsmen did "ok" at times but were put to shame by the aussie team batting against an insipid unimaginative attack.
we have a long way to go in that arena and jimmy and broad are no spring chickens any more....
johnfm said:
English cricket - one of the issues is too many clubs.
Historically, every bloody village has one. Some can scrape together a second eleven as well - but the seconds might play 2 or 3 divisions below the first team, so not much option for dropping and promoting players. You then have too many average teams with the occasional good cricketer playing.
It woul dbe better for the standard if teams were combined, so fewer clubs full of good cricketers competing and having 4 grades with small steps between each. You can then have decent first team cricket and viable optionsn in the second team if someone is making rusn in 2s and someone is failign in the first team. What you get now is undroppable players in clubs because the gulf is too great to the second team.
This is also reflected in county crciket. Too many teams and too many average trundlers bowling dibby dobbly with an overseas quick at the other end. The 'journeyman seamer' flattered by helpful conditions and the Dukes ball. Compare to 6 Sheffield Shield teams in Aust. Not much room for trundlers. Half the county players in England would struggle in first grade cricket in Australia. You've sort of addressed this by having two divisions - but it still flatters many average cricketers who are good club palyers but not really first class cricketers.
That Eng have been so successful in recent Ashes contests is testament to the individuals on the park who have made it through despite the system - that and foreign coaches teaching your lot how to play hard cricket.
It is changing (often as smaller clubs die) - many of the larger clubs have 4 or more teams. One of my old clubs used to have their 1sts in the Prem and 2nds in div 1 or 2.. There is a big difference in standard between Prem and Div 1 though.Historically, every bloody village has one. Some can scrape together a second eleven as well - but the seconds might play 2 or 3 divisions below the first team, so not much option for dropping and promoting players. You then have too many average teams with the occasional good cricketer playing.
It woul dbe better for the standard if teams were combined, so fewer clubs full of good cricketers competing and having 4 grades with small steps between each. You can then have decent first team cricket and viable optionsn in the second team if someone is making rusn in 2s and someone is failign in the first team. What you get now is undroppable players in clubs because the gulf is too great to the second team.
This is also reflected in county crciket. Too many teams and too many average trundlers bowling dibby dobbly with an overseas quick at the other end. The 'journeyman seamer' flattered by helpful conditions and the Dukes ball. Compare to 6 Sheffield Shield teams in Aust. Not much room for trundlers. Half the county players in England would struggle in first grade cricket in Australia. You've sort of addressed this by having two divisions - but it still flatters many average cricketers who are good club palyers but not really first class cricketers.
That Eng have been so successful in recent Ashes contests is testament to the individuals on the park who have made it through despite the system - that and foreign coaches teaching your lot how to play hard cricket.
ECB has tried to introduce a more formal pyramid into county league structures but I'm not sure it has achieved much. We now have one league in our county with around 20 divisions.. There are too many average players being paid by the top local clubs, all desperate to buy success.. Not sure that helps.
I suspect the overseas players used to sharpen up the county comps...it's a different game when you're facing Holding or bowling to Richards..
All this talk of 'things need to change' is great however give it a few weeks/months and we'll be back to normal. England will do okay in the 2 tests in NZ in March/April then it's Pakistan at home where Anderson, Broad and co will make hay with the duke ball in the early summer conditions vs a poor Pakistani batting line up. And finally there are 5 test matches against India who, lets face it, are one of the worst touring sides in cricketing history - their flat track bullies will capitulate against the English seamers. By that stage the Ashes will be long forgotten about and all this talk of 'change' by the cricketing establishment will be too.
Apparently we are sill favourites for the ODI international series which starts tonight. How can that be? Well I hope the optimism is well founded.
3.20am kick off, luckily I have the walking dead graphic novel, which I bought for my daughter but really for me, to keep me awake until then.
The walking dead and English cricket ... hmmm, no funny comments please.
Meanwhile, the NZ bunch we are up against next not doing too badly against Pakistan.
3.20am kick off, luckily I have the walking dead graphic novel, which I bought for my daughter but really for me, to keep me awake until then.
The walking dead and English cricket ... hmmm, no funny comments please.
Meanwhile, the NZ bunch we are up against next not doing too badly against Pakistan.
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