The difference between English rugby players and footballers
Discussion
DocJock said:
Unfortunately there is no honour in football. The attitude of 'win at any cost' permeates all the way from management and players in the premier league all the way down to junior sunday games.
It would require a sea change in attitude from the FIFA/FAs, who tolerate the disgraceful behaviour towards officials, managers, who defend/deny the disgusting behaviour from their players, and players who will cheat/lie/playact to get any advantage they can.
It needs a strong leader at the very top to insist that refs start showing cards for any dissent. If that means a few games being abandonded because too many players are dismissed, so be it. The players might be idiots but they are not daft. If they keep getting sent off for dissent they will stop.
That said, regarding football players wages, they are the ones the public pay to see, so if the clubs are bringing in multimillions, it should go mostly to the players.
Totally agree, superbly put.... apart from the last sentence. This obscene amount of money should be capped, with some fed back into the grass roots levels of football. Better local facilities etc. I would suggest we would see a lot less badge kissing from these monkeys, as they are weighing up their next move. It would require a sea change in attitude from the FIFA/FAs, who tolerate the disgraceful behaviour towards officials, managers, who defend/deny the disgusting behaviour from their players, and players who will cheat/lie/playact to get any advantage they can.
It needs a strong leader at the very top to insist that refs start showing cards for any dissent. If that means a few games being abandonded because too many players are dismissed, so be it. The players might be idiots but they are not daft. If they keep getting sent off for dissent they will stop.
That said, regarding football players wages, they are the ones the public pay to see, so if the clubs are bringing in multimillions, it should go mostly to the players.
The 10 yard rule should also be introduced, as should a fixed 10 minute sinbin and a 10 minute sideline 'rest' for those who appear to have been shot, when pretending to be injured. Stop it all in an instant. Football is a great game, sadly blighted by appalling levels of sportsmanship and integrity at every level, management, players, fans, agents & the media.
The FA chairman is looking into that as I type.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competit...
It would be a welcome addition, I think.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competit...
It would be a welcome addition, I think.
And consider the scandal it kicked up. I happened to be on a train with a few Directors of companies who all supported and sponsored Quins a few weeks after the story broke and leading upto the ERC decision on whether to ban Quins from future entry into Europe. Strangely enough they all seemed to be Pack boys aswell!
Anyway, we got talking about various things and they were all unanimous on one subject...if Quinns were hit further with European bans they would all pull their funding from Quinns and it would then be very dodgy if the club could continue. They were of differing opinions in determining the scale of the offence...Deano was afterall a complete and utter hero... but they all agreed that whilst negative PR could be survived by sticking with the club and moving on to the next chapter. Negative PR and then NO PR exposure was too much to stomach.
Bloodgate caused a hell of a crisis in rugby and it came very very close to killing one of the oldest names in the game, as in imagine Arsenal going under because Van Persie kicked an opposition player, got sent off and Arse didnt qualify for the next round of the Champs League. Such a thing would never happen in football, it was very nearly reality in rugby. I think the scale of the reaction and crisis illustrates the difference in attitudes.
Anyway, we got talking about various things and they were all unanimous on one subject...if Quinns were hit further with European bans they would all pull their funding from Quinns and it would then be very dodgy if the club could continue. They were of differing opinions in determining the scale of the offence...Deano was afterall a complete and utter hero... but they all agreed that whilst negative PR could be survived by sticking with the club and moving on to the next chapter. Negative PR and then NO PR exposure was too much to stomach.
Bloodgate caused a hell of a crisis in rugby and it came very very close to killing one of the oldest names in the game, as in imagine Arsenal going under because Van Persie kicked an opposition player, got sent off and Arse didnt qualify for the next round of the Champs League. Such a thing would never happen in football, it was very nearly reality in rugby. I think the scale of the reaction and crisis illustrates the difference in attitudes.
Derek Smith said:
DocJock said:
Unfortunately there is no honour in football. The attitude of 'win at any cost' permeates all the way from management and players in the premier league all the way down to junior sunday games.
Bloodgate?Also, bloodgate was a strange case in that it was totally premeditated by the management prior to the match. I know 'I was only doing what I was told' is no defence, but it IS different.
Obviously since RU turned pro the players push the boundaries as far as they can. The difference I think is that they do not appeal every decision the way footballers do. How many times do you see a player appeal for a throw-in or corner kick when it is blatantly obvious to all that he played it last? How often do they feign injury?
It is this culture of challenging every decision , along with the haranguing of the officials after just about every decision that is the difference.
We are starting to see 'professionalism' (aka cheating) creeping into the game such as diving when chasing down a high ball but hopefully a wave of the yellow card now and again will keep it from prolferating. Same with dissent, it needs stamping on now, before it becomes commonplace.
Edited by DocJock on Tuesday 22 March 16:58
I think it may have been on a different thread that I said that I thought that Rugby (at the highest level) has always been riven with gamesmanship.
The game is almost built on the folklore of fights, punches and "aggressive rucking". As long as I have known the game someone has gone down on one knee to buy a bit of time(normally a prop). (Never after being punched though, normally after a canter back into their own 22).
Any forward's autobiography is full of tales that end "so I stood on him", "then I hit him, and his mate"
The worry at the moment is not that the players "push it" it's the increasing amount of "football style" dissent.
With regards to Bloodgate - a bridge too far, but nobody I know in the game seems to really give a s
t, which implies something.
"There but for the grace of god......"???
(Sorry, it reads like a bit of a ramble - may edit it in the morning!)
The game is almost built on the folklore of fights, punches and "aggressive rucking". As long as I have known the game someone has gone down on one knee to buy a bit of time(normally a prop). (Never after being punched though, normally after a canter back into their own 22).
Any forward's autobiography is full of tales that end "so I stood on him", "then I hit him, and his mate"
The worry at the moment is not that the players "push it" it's the increasing amount of "football style" dissent.
With regards to Bloodgate - a bridge too far, but nobody I know in the game seems to really give a s
t, which implies something."There but for the grace of god......"???
(Sorry, it reads like a bit of a ramble - may edit it in the morning!)
DJC said:
You sober yet Stephen?
It's been a struggle. Far too old for weekends like that.The O'Driscoll tackle is an example - I think spear tackles are a step to far though.
Chinning (several times) him would have been ok.
Banahan should have chinned him on Saturday! (doubt he would have got near enough though)
Also the youtube vid of Johnson refusing to move the team for the Irish president is a classic.
Not sure where I am going with this though, seems like I am saying
Cheating OK
Fighting OK
Don't harrass the ref
Don't complain when caught, or when cheated against (take it on the chin, and hit him next game)
Never, ever roll around on the floor crying unless punched like Ackford by Mendes (another you tube classic)
that can;t be correct can it?
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 22 March 23:10
Robbo66 said:
Totally agree, superbly put.... apart from the last sentence. This obscene amount of money should be capped, with some fed back into the grass roots levels of football. Better local facilities etc. I would suggest we would see a lot less badge kissing from these monkeys, as they are weighing up their next move.
Can we assume that you'd be happy for your salary to be capped, and a portion of it given to students hoping to someday earn a living in your line of work?
Arthur Jackson said:
WATCHED by gentlemen.
desolate said:
It's been a struggle. Far too old for weekends like that.
The O'Driscoll tackle is an example - I think spear tackles are a step to far though.
Chinning (several times) him would have been ok.
Banahan should have chinned him on Saturday! (doubt he would have got near enough though)
Also the youtube vid of Johnson refusing to move the team for the Irish president is a classic.
Not sure where I am going with this though, seems like I am saying
Cheating OK
Fighting OK
Don't harrass the ref
Don't complain when caught, or when cheated against (take it on the chin, and hit him next game)
Never, ever roll around on the floor crying unless punched like Ackford by Mendes (another you tube classic)
that can;t be correct can it?
I can accept there will be cheating in both sports. It's the moaning about it to the ref and subsequent abuse of the ref that annoys me. By all means cheat, just don't complain when decisions don't go your way. Scrum halves in rugby union and everyone in soccer are particularly good at moaning to the ref.The O'Driscoll tackle is an example - I think spear tackles are a step to far though.
Chinning (several times) him would have been ok.
Banahan should have chinned him on Saturday! (doubt he would have got near enough though)
Also the youtube vid of Johnson refusing to move the team for the Irish president is a classic.
Not sure where I am going with this though, seems like I am saying
Cheating OK
Fighting OK
Don't harrass the ref
Don't complain when caught, or when cheated against (take it on the chin, and hit him next game)
Never, ever roll around on the floor crying unless punched like Ackford by Mendes (another you tube classic)
that can;t be correct can it?
I reckon soccer could benefit by adopting the "10 yards for dissent" rule from rugby union and perhaps some sort of sin-binning system too.
interesting thread - I think the nail has been hit by several posters
1. Education - footballers in the majority are less educated than Rugby players
2. Class - football is a working mans sport - Rugby is an upper class sport
3. Cheating is part of the game in football. Watching some of the players and the blatent diving, cheating, lying and whinging that the players do. It is shameful and embarrassing.
In F1 - when Alfonso had his teammate crash to allow him to benefit from safety car, or Schumacher parked at Monaco in qualifying. It is shameless shameless disgusting unsportsman like behaviour. Unfortunately pretty much every game of football has this in spades.
How can the fan, or casual supporter ever justify cheating as a way to go about your sport? There is little or no honour in football and as a result it makes the players terrible role models for the young kids. I'd go further and say that the culture we have by the majority of losers in this country can be seen in the game of football.
I would say on balance - Rugby is the complete opposite.
1. Education - footballers in the majority are less educated than Rugby players
2. Class - football is a working mans sport - Rugby is an upper class sport
3. Cheating is part of the game in football. Watching some of the players and the blatent diving, cheating, lying and whinging that the players do. It is shameful and embarrassing.
In F1 - when Alfonso had his teammate crash to allow him to benefit from safety car, or Schumacher parked at Monaco in qualifying. It is shameless shameless disgusting unsportsman like behaviour. Unfortunately pretty much every game of football has this in spades.
How can the fan, or casual supporter ever justify cheating as a way to go about your sport? There is little or no honour in football and as a result it makes the players terrible role models for the young kids. I'd go further and say that the culture we have by the majority of losers in this country can be seen in the game of football.
I would say on balance - Rugby is the complete opposite.
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