The **BOXING** thread (Vol 4)
Discussion
Unreal said:
The downside of crossover fights like these is that it brings out all the opinions from people who are clueless about boxing but feel the need to post their tripe in boxing forums. Hopefully they'll melt away once we get back to boxers fighting boxers.
Despite Fury's poor performance in the first Ngannou fight, and the latter's record in MMA, neither fight should have been sanctioned. Ngannou could quite easily have been killed by that final punch last night.
The bigger fights do draw the casuals in but much like I did in this thread years ago you can come and learn some stuff and it does still in the main remain one of the few threads on PH that's not filled with dross. Despite Fury's poor performance in the first Ngannou fight, and the latter's record in MMA, neither fight should have been sanctioned. Ngannou could quite easily have been killed by that final punch last night.
biggbn said:
Nope, I thought Ngannou edged that fight, said so on here. I'm a massive fan of Fury but he did the exact opposite of AJ, he took Francis lightly, didn't train properly and thought he could walk through his opponent. AJ showed Francis respect, his fans respect and the sport respect by training and investing himself into this fight. He did exactly what he should have done to a big, limited, raw novice, but he didn't take it for granted that he would...he has been a consumate professional. For me, fixed fights, poor judges etc all exist, I'm 55 and been a boxing fan all of my life, of course they do. But you don't throw a fight by offering your chin to a puncher like AJ. Francis was reacting to every feint like the amateur he is, if you know watching you will see this. AJ must have been metaphorically rubbing his hands together with glee when he realised what an easy target he was, yet he STILL showed utmost respect as he knows FN can bang. As grotesque as this may sound, AJ could have boxed his way to an easy victory last night, the physical and mental shape he was in, but he chose to clinically dispatch a man nowhere near his league. That's spite. That's badness. This is the hurt game and AJ's psyche is back.
In my opinion he won't, can't do that to the likes of Usyk or Fury because styles make fights and their reactions and skill set are much, much different than FN. I do now think AJ knocks out Wilder, whom I have consistently felt was all wrong for him, if he keeps this strong, clinical mindset. A dangerous man and a consumate pro...and one who I give a much bigger chance of beating today's Fury than I ever have.
So your man Fury obviously has been shown up by this result. I get that he didn't "show up" for FN he was in bad shape but no worse than his last few fights. He's obviously trained like a man possessed for the Usyk fight but does he have a more basic problem that although he's looked flashy against some ok opponents he actually just isn't as good as he's been built up to look? That would be a very logical conclusion. In my opinion he won't, can't do that to the likes of Usyk or Fury because styles make fights and their reactions and skill set are much, much different than FN. I do now think AJ knocks out Wilder, whom I have consistently felt was all wrong for him, if he keeps this strong, clinical mindset. A dangerous man and a consumate pro...and one who I give a much bigger chance of beating today's Fury than I ever have.
Edited by biggbn on Saturday 9th March 12:16
If AJ has fought FN first the guy would have been written off as a complete novelty but Fury gets a FN that's amazing and the next big thing in boxing? How does that work? In shape or not if Fury really was any good he should have at least won the fight. AJ didn't use any physical training in 2 rounds he just used very basic boxing skill so why can't Fury find that even if he wasn't fit?
Before the AJ fight Fury was telling him not to bother trying to hurt FN as he's made of granite and took an elbow etc. I think Fury just found his level. AJ is running out of quality opponents to fight and Fury is running it of lower quality opponents to keep the hype train going. Tyson and his unbearable father have done well for themselves but he will never have a legacy for hardcore boxing fans.
fridaypassion said:
biggbn said:
Nope, I thought Ngannou edged that fight, said so on here. I'm a massive fan of Fury but he did the exact opposite of AJ, he took Francis lightly, didn't train properly and thought he could walk through his opponent. AJ showed Francis respect, his fans respect and the sport respect by training and investing himself into this fight. He did exactly what he should have done to a big, limited, raw novice, but he didn't take it for granted that he would...he has been a consumate professional. For me, fixed fights, poor judges etc all exist, I'm 55 and been a boxing fan all of my life, of course they do. But you don't throw a fight by offering your chin to a puncher like AJ. Francis was reacting to every feint like the amateur he is, if you know watching you will see this. AJ must have been metaphorically rubbing his hands together with glee when he realised what an easy target he was, yet he STILL showed utmost respect as he knows FN can bang. As grotesque as this may sound, AJ could have boxed his way to an easy victory last night, the physical and mental shape he was in, but he chose to clinically dispatch a man nowhere near his league. That's spite. That's badness. This is the hurt game and AJ's psyche is back.
In my opinion he won't, can't do that to the likes of Usyk or Fury because styles make fights and their reactions and skill set are much, much different than FN. I do now think AJ knocks out Wilder, whom I have consistently felt was all wrong for him, if he keeps this strong, clinical mindset. A dangerous man and a consumate pro...and one who I give a much bigger chance of beating today's Fury than I ever have.
So your man Fury obviously has been shown up by this result. I get that he didn't "show up" for FN he was in bad shape but no worse than his last few fights. He's obviously trained like a man possessed for the Usyk fight but does he have a more basic problem that although he's looked flashy against some ok opponents he actually just isn't as good as he's been built up to look? That would be a very logical conclusion. In my opinion he won't, can't do that to the likes of Usyk or Fury because styles make fights and their reactions and skill set are much, much different than FN. I do now think AJ knocks out Wilder, whom I have consistently felt was all wrong for him, if he keeps this strong, clinical mindset. A dangerous man and a consumate pro...and one who I give a much bigger chance of beating today's Fury than I ever have.
Edited by biggbn on Saturday 9th March 12:16
If AJ has fought FN first the guy would have been written off as a complete novelty but Fury gets a FN that's amazing and the next big thing in boxing? How does that work? In shape or not if Fury really was any good he should have at least won the fight. AJ didn't use any physical training in 2 rounds he just used very basic boxing skill so why can't Fury find that even if he wasn't fit?
Before the AJ fight Fury was telling him not to bother trying to hurt FN as he's made of granite and took an elbow etc. I think Fury just found his level. AJ is running out of quality opponents to fight and Fury is running it of lower quality opponents to keep the hype train going. Tyson and his unbearable father have done well for themselves but he will never have a legacy for hardcore boxing fans.
He should have been able to box Ngannou's ears off although I've never rated Fury as a puncher so I didn't expect a stoppage. His knockdowns of Wilder didn't prove real punch power, just Wilder's weak chin and lack of stamina. As for Ngannou's durability and power, MMA fighters aren't used to being hit flush by pro boxers and nor is striking the only part of their offence, any more than chokes or leg kicks are part of a boxer's armoury. Utterly pointless match up and I hope that's the last we'll see of it.
I can't see why Usyk would feel the need to fight AJ again even if Fury bottles their fight as I expect him to do. I guess he'd take Parker who has earned his shot. Maybe Hrgovic but I can see AJ being frozen out for a year at least.
The main event ended in brutal fashion last night, after the second knockdown I think everyone knew it was coming but the ferocity of the punch was something else. You can see in the slow-motion footage that Ngannou was on autopilot, he was looking at Joshua walking towards him, looking at the punch coming in, but doesn't make any real move to defend himself and pow, it's over. I think this is the result everyone expected from the Fury fight, which Tyson was obviously unable to deliver.
The problem with the Fury fight was Fury not taking Ngannou seriously. He turned up for his heaviest-ever weigh-in, took a punch that dropped him and after that, was fighting a combination of nerves, knowing the next big punch could see him knocked out and his dwindling energy reserves from being totally out of shape. He wrote Ngannou off before the fight even started, as many of us did. It cost him and the sport of boxing dearly. We now have a situation where the world's best / second best HW struggled against a debutant.
Joshua has put that right to some extent, showing that a focused boxer can get the job done quickly against an MMA fighter, but still, for someone one Joshua's level to have completed that task where Fury couldn't, it still doesn't paint the HW boxing world in a great light. And while Ngannou might have ended the night on the canvas, nobody doubts his power and with Joshua's shaky chin, nobody is in any doubt, least of all Joshua himself, that a clean punch from Ngannou could have dealt another crippling blow to the sport. The sigh of relief in the boxing world was tremendous.
Still, it seems the Ngannou experiement is over for now. You've got boxing fans saying "fight journeymen, work your way up, you've got latent talent and the freakish physiology to potentially do well in boxing", but I can't see why Ngannou would bother, it seems like a lot of risk and work when the paydays aren't going to be there. On the other hand, you've got MMA fans saying that a boxer should fight him in MMA, which again would end about predictably as it did in MMA's early days where pure martial artists from one disciple or another would fight and the outcome would be largely based on the strengths and weaknesses of their disciplines - they were actually really interesting days for the sport, come to think of it. With the amount of money in boxing and the relative lack of money in MMA, I can't see any boxer ever having the appetite to get taken down, punched, elbowed and choked out for a relative pittance compared to what they'd earn in boxing.
So it's over and done, a little sideshow to distract from how stale boxing, particularly and HW, has become. Now we can see how the Fury Usyk thing goes, whoever comes out on top of the fight and rematch, or trilogy if needed, will be declared the best HW and have little in the way of exciting fights lined up. I think Fury will retire when the Usyk chapter is done and Uysk has beaten Joshua so decisively I can see little interest in a re-run for him to do it a third time. Who does that leave? Big Bang was getting a little bit of talking up but he never looked that good to mean and I think his steam is gone after he looked dreadful last night.
The problem with the Fury fight was Fury not taking Ngannou seriously. He turned up for his heaviest-ever weigh-in, took a punch that dropped him and after that, was fighting a combination of nerves, knowing the next big punch could see him knocked out and his dwindling energy reserves from being totally out of shape. He wrote Ngannou off before the fight even started, as many of us did. It cost him and the sport of boxing dearly. We now have a situation where the world's best / second best HW struggled against a debutant.
Joshua has put that right to some extent, showing that a focused boxer can get the job done quickly against an MMA fighter, but still, for someone one Joshua's level to have completed that task where Fury couldn't, it still doesn't paint the HW boxing world in a great light. And while Ngannou might have ended the night on the canvas, nobody doubts his power and with Joshua's shaky chin, nobody is in any doubt, least of all Joshua himself, that a clean punch from Ngannou could have dealt another crippling blow to the sport. The sigh of relief in the boxing world was tremendous.
Still, it seems the Ngannou experiement is over for now. You've got boxing fans saying "fight journeymen, work your way up, you've got latent talent and the freakish physiology to potentially do well in boxing", but I can't see why Ngannou would bother, it seems like a lot of risk and work when the paydays aren't going to be there. On the other hand, you've got MMA fans saying that a boxer should fight him in MMA, which again would end about predictably as it did in MMA's early days where pure martial artists from one disciple or another would fight and the outcome would be largely based on the strengths and weaknesses of their disciplines - they were actually really interesting days for the sport, come to think of it. With the amount of money in boxing and the relative lack of money in MMA, I can't see any boxer ever having the appetite to get taken down, punched, elbowed and choked out for a relative pittance compared to what they'd earn in boxing.
So it's over and done, a little sideshow to distract from how stale boxing, particularly and HW, has become. Now we can see how the Fury Usyk thing goes, whoever comes out on top of the fight and rematch, or trilogy if needed, will be declared the best HW and have little in the way of exciting fights lined up. I think Fury will retire when the Usyk chapter is done and Uysk has beaten Joshua so decisively I can see little interest in a re-run for him to do it a third time. Who does that leave? Big Bang was getting a little bit of talking up but he never looked that good to mean and I think his steam is gone after he looked dreadful last night.
carlo996 said:
Why did Zhang come in so heavy, and after he knocked Parker down, why didn’t he put the pressure on?
All very odd.
I think where we saw Zhang start to struggle was Parkers superb movement. He just was not say to hit. Obviously when he did get chance he was effective but you can see where he was effective with Joyce (there to be hit). That little triangle is a good demonstration on how styles make fights. Joyce beats Parker but Parker beats Zhang who beat Joyce. All very odd.
fridaypassion said:
I think where we saw Zhang start to struggle was Parkers superb movement. He just was not say to hit. Obviously when he did get chance he was effective but you can see where he was effective with Joyce (there to be hit). That little triangle is a good demonstration on how styles make fights. Joyce beats Parker but Parker beats Zhang who beat Joyce.
He did the same with Wilder, Zhang must have known his plan was to move and out work him? But he comes in heavy, slower? His power is daft, but he looked absolutely gassed in the late stages. Never troubled by Parker’s power, so I have to wonder why? fridaypassion said:
carlo996 said:
Why did Zhang come in so heavy, and after he knocked Parker down, why didn’t he put the pressure on?
All very odd.
I think where we saw Zhang start to struggle was Parkers superb movement. He just was not say to hit. Obviously when he did get chance he was effective but you can see where he was effective with Joyce (there to be hit). That little triangle is a good demonstration on how styles make fights. Joyce beats Parker but Parker beats Zhang who beat Joyce. All very odd.
biggbn said:
Bang on. Styles make fights. You can rarely compare how one fighter got on against a common opponent with how another did. Think Foreman/Frazier/Norton/Ali.
So if you were Zhang, why would you have come in so heavy? As for 'styles make fights' I am sick of hearing Fury waffle on about this, I am a fan of his, but it's wearing thin and if the reports of how he behaved at the event are true it'll likely be the tipping point for me. I already can't stand his daft father and youtube boxer brother....and that Saunders prick....
Mastodon2 said:
The main event ended in brutal fashion last night, after the second knockdown I think everyone knew it was coming but the ferocity of the punch was something else. You can see in the slow-motion footage that Ngannou was on autopilot, he was looking at Joshua walking towards him, looking at the punch coming in, but doesn't make any real move to defend himself and pow, it's over. I think this is the result everyone expected from the Fury fight, which Tyson was obviously unable to deliver.
The problem with the Fury fight was Fury not taking Ngannou seriously. He turned up for his heaviest-ever weigh-in, took a punch that dropped him and after that, was fighting a combination of nerves, knowing the next big punch could see him knocked out and his dwindling energy reserves from being totally out of shape. He wrote Ngannou off before the fight even started, as many of us did. It cost him and the sport of boxing dearly. We now have a situation where the world's best / second best HW struggled against a debutant.
Joshua has put that right to some extent, showing that a focused boxer can get the job done quickly against an MMA fighter, but still, for someone one Joshua's level to have completed that task where Fury couldn't, it still doesn't paint the HW boxing world in a great light. And while Ngannou might have ended the night on the canvas, nobody doubts his power and with Joshua's shaky chin, nobody is in any doubt, least of all Joshua himself, that a clean punch from Ngannou could have dealt another crippling blow to the sport. The sigh of relief in the boxing world was tremendous.
Still, it seems the Ngannou experiement is over for now. You've got boxing fans saying "fight journeymen, work your way up, you've got latent talent and the freakish physiology to potentially do well in boxing", but I can't see why Ngannou would bother, it seems like a lot of risk and work when the paydays aren't going to be there. On the other hand, you've got MMA fans saying that a boxer should fight him in MMA, which again would end about predictably as it did in MMA's early days where pure martial artists from one disciple or another would fight and the outcome would be largely based on the strengths and weaknesses of their disciplines - they were actually really interesting days for the sport, come to think of it. With the amount of money in boxing and the relative lack of money in MMA, I can't see any boxer ever having the appetite to get taken down, punched, elbowed and choked out for a relative pittance compared to what they'd earn in boxing.
So it's over and done, a little sideshow to distract from how stale boxing, particularly and HW, has become. Now we can see how the Fury Usyk thing goes, whoever comes out on top of the fight and rematch, or trilogy if needed, will be declared the best HW and have little in the way of exciting fights lined up. I think Fury will retire when the Usyk chapter is done and Uysk has beaten Joshua so decisively I can see little interest in a re-run for him to do it a third time. Who does that leave? Big Bang was getting a little bit of talking up but he never looked that good to mean and I think his steam is gone after he looked dreadful last night.
Very long winded way of saying you believe a tip top fury would have dealt with FN. I doubt it. He was getting thrown around like a rag doll in that ring. He just doesn’t have that sort of core strength or power. The problem with the Fury fight was Fury not taking Ngannou seriously. He turned up for his heaviest-ever weigh-in, took a punch that dropped him and after that, was fighting a combination of nerves, knowing the next big punch could see him knocked out and his dwindling energy reserves from being totally out of shape. He wrote Ngannou off before the fight even started, as many of us did. It cost him and the sport of boxing dearly. We now have a situation where the world's best / second best HW struggled against a debutant.
Joshua has put that right to some extent, showing that a focused boxer can get the job done quickly against an MMA fighter, but still, for someone one Joshua's level to have completed that task where Fury couldn't, it still doesn't paint the HW boxing world in a great light. And while Ngannou might have ended the night on the canvas, nobody doubts his power and with Joshua's shaky chin, nobody is in any doubt, least of all Joshua himself, that a clean punch from Ngannou could have dealt another crippling blow to the sport. The sigh of relief in the boxing world was tremendous.
Still, it seems the Ngannou experiement is over for now. You've got boxing fans saying "fight journeymen, work your way up, you've got latent talent and the freakish physiology to potentially do well in boxing", but I can't see why Ngannou would bother, it seems like a lot of risk and work when the paydays aren't going to be there. On the other hand, you've got MMA fans saying that a boxer should fight him in MMA, which again would end about predictably as it did in MMA's early days where pure martial artists from one disciple or another would fight and the outcome would be largely based on the strengths and weaknesses of their disciplines - they were actually really interesting days for the sport, come to think of it. With the amount of money in boxing and the relative lack of money in MMA, I can't see any boxer ever having the appetite to get taken down, punched, elbowed and choked out for a relative pittance compared to what they'd earn in boxing.
So it's over and done, a little sideshow to distract from how stale boxing, particularly and HW, has become. Now we can see how the Fury Usyk thing goes, whoever comes out on top of the fight and rematch, or trilogy if needed, will be declared the best HW and have little in the way of exciting fights lined up. I think Fury will retire when the Usyk chapter is done and Uysk has beaten Joshua so decisively I can see little interest in a re-run for him to do it a third time. Who does that leave? Big Bang was getting a little bit of talking up but he never looked that good to mean and I think his steam is gone after he looked dreadful last night.
Indeed. Fury wasn't fit but he's still apparently a skillful boxer?
Or is he like Wilder? The real skill has been in his match making. He's filled Wembley a couple of times for absolute nothing fights I think that's Fury's main skill being a draw and filling seats.
With Usyk he's really only now facing absolute elite opposition for the first time. Let's see if he turns up first.
Or is he like Wilder? The real skill has been in his match making. He's filled Wembley a couple of times for absolute nothing fights I think that's Fury's main skill being a draw and filling seats.
With Usyk he's really only now facing absolute elite opposition for the first time. Let's see if he turns up first.
Ngannou pretty much exactly as we thought.... Plodding, wide open face first defence, really readable wide shots ... Tailor made for a fairly agile and very traditional " one, two" down the pipe first off sort of fighter that Joshua executes really well. I think I said ngannou would make Joshua look stellar and so it transpired ... He had no need to really work in close and risk clinching against such a strong bloke. The only thing that shocked me was how easily he crumbled given I thought he would need chopping down over several rounds, possibly even last the distance..... Joshua's power when he sets is world class...
Parker employed great movement against Zhang and looked really sharp....
Madrimov is a f
king beast... And I think nick ball got had off there
Parker employed great movement against Zhang and looked really sharp....
Madrimov is a f
king beast... And I think nick ball got had off theretuscaneer said:
Ngannou pretty much exactly as we thought.... Plodding, wide open face first defence, really readable wide shots ... Tailor made for a fairly agile and very traditional " one, two" down the pipe first off sort of fighter that Joshua executes really well. I think I said ngannou would make Joshua look stellar and so it transpired ... He had no need to really work in close and risk clinching against such a strong bloke. The only thing that shocked me was how easily he crumbled given I thought he would need chopping down over several rounds, possibly even last the distance..... Joshua's power when he sets is world class...
Parker employed great movement against Zhang and looked really sharp....
Madrimov is a fking beast... And I think nick ball got had off there
As I said in an earlier post, the MMA guys aren't being punched that hard, despite obvious resilience in other areas. I was sure AJ would KO Ngannou and I'm annoyed with myself for not betting on it.Parker employed great movement against Zhang and looked really sharp....
Madrimov is a f
king beast... And I think nick ball got had off thereMadrimov is very GGG like. Not just style - that looping punch from above and the cutting off the ring for example - but even the coming of age relatively late. I believe he's 29 and I think he can own the division for the next few years. He doesn't look the biggest guy though so again like GGG may stay at the weight. A joy to watch.
fridaypassion said:
biggbn said:
Nope, I thought Ngannou edged that fight, said so on here. I'm a massive fan of Fury but he did the exact opposite of AJ, he took Francis lightly, didn't train properly and thought he could walk through his opponent. AJ showed Francis respect, his fans respect and the sport respect by training and investing himself into this fight. He did exactly what he should have done to a big, limited, raw novice, but he didn't take it for granted that he would...he has been a consumate professional. For me, fixed fights, poor judges etc all exist, I'm 55 and been a boxing fan all of my life, of course they do. But you don't throw a fight by offering your chin to a puncher like AJ. Francis was reacting to every feint like the amateur he is, if you know watching you will see this. AJ must have been metaphorically rubbing his hands together with glee when he realised what an easy target he was, yet he STILL showed utmost respect as he knows FN can bang. As grotesque as this may sound, AJ could have boxed his way to an easy victory last night, the physical and mental shape he was in, but he chose to clinically dispatch a man nowhere near his league. That's spite. That's badness. This is the hurt game and AJ's psyche is back.
In my opinion he won't, can't do that to the likes of Usyk or Fury because styles make fights and their reactions and skill set are much, much different than FN. I do now think AJ knocks out Wilder, whom I have consistently felt was all wrong for him, if he keeps this strong, clinical mindset. A dangerous man and a consumate pro...and one who I give a much bigger chance of beating today's Fury than I ever have.
So your man Fury obviously has been shown up by this result. I get that he didn't "show up" for FN he was in bad shape but no worse than his last few fights. He's obviously trained like a man possessed for the Usyk fight but does he have a more basic problem that although he's looked flashy against some ok opponents he actually just isn't as good as he's been built up to look? That would be a very logical conclusion. In my opinion he won't, can't do that to the likes of Usyk or Fury because styles make fights and their reactions and skill set are much, much different than FN. I do now think AJ knocks out Wilder, whom I have consistently felt was all wrong for him, if he keeps this strong, clinical mindset. A dangerous man and a consumate pro...and one who I give a much bigger chance of beating today's Fury than I ever have.
Edited by biggbn on Saturday 9th March 12:16
If AJ has fought FN first the guy would have been written off as a complete novelty but Fury gets a FN that's amazing and the next big thing in boxing? How does that work? In shape or not if Fury really was any good he should have at least won the fight. AJ didn't use any physical training in 2 rounds he just used very basic boxing skill so why can't Fury find that even if he wasn't fit?
Before the AJ fight Fury was telling him not to bother trying to hurt FN as he's made of granite and took an elbow etc. I think Fury just found his level. AJ is running out of quality opponents to fight and Fury is running it of lower quality opponents to keep the hype train going. Tyson and his unbearable father have done well for themselves but he will never have a legacy for hardcore boxing fans.
t or get off the pot. If, as many suggest, Usyk embarrasses him then AJ knocks his block off, he is not the boxer I believe him to be, and I'm quite prepared to he wrong about that because I have an evolving position, not a fixed mind set. I think the best Fury beats both men, its just a difference of opinion...however, whilst I felt that he'd embarrass AJ prior to the second Usyk fight, I believe that AJ, the best AJ I've ever seen, makes it much closer to a pick 'em fight. And the fact Usyk still clearly, if uncomfortably at times beat THAT AJ, makes me wonder about the Fury fight even more. Your constant referral to 'casual fans' and dismissal of Fury fans as 'casual fans' is a little off. I'm 55 man, I've been a boxing fan all my life, I've boxed recreationally, I'm a competent martial artist and have had a brace of MMA tussles, training MMA more as I aged gracefully. Not been in a ring or on a mat for about ten years now having retired 'undefeated'
after a local inter club championship; and that my friend is said with deep irony. I've never competed at any level other than national as a youngster and local as an adult..although I admittedly led a rather troubled, violent life for a long time as an adult, but this may not be the platfrom for bearing one's soul! ..I think though that my combat sports credentials will stand up to scrutiny as more than a 'casual fan'.For me, Fury's mental shape is more important than his physical one, although he will need both to be 100% to compete against the top men once again. Although I believe he will/can beat both, I'd have to say Usyk is the best active heavyweight in the world now and I'd have to place AJ second....because they fight. All this 'I'm a fighting man' shtick from Fury is getting really tedious isn't it?. Who knows, maybe he gets thumped in his next two fights having pissed away both opportunity and talent...if that's the case, he'll be remembered as a fraud, and can't be considered the best of his generation. That's his decision, his narrative. We all create our own story and he's not writing himself a happy ending, is he?
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