The **BOXING** thread (Vol 4)
Discussion
tuscaneer said:
Unreal said:
tuscaneer said:
If usyk goes now I wonder where he stands on the atg list.... People will use the relatively small number of fights against him but f
k me...... Dominated the strongest ever cruiserweight field, and then beat the perceived top 2 heavyweights of his time hoovering up all the belts in both divisions... Undisputed twice after one of the best ever amateur careers....
You've got to have him up in the rarified air haven't you?
Top 5 ATG. No question. Won everything. Ducked no-one. Unbeaten. Never on the floor. k me...... Dominated the strongest ever cruiserweight field, and then beat the perceived top 2 heavyweights of his time hoovering up all the belts in both divisions... Undisputed twice after one of the best ever amateur careers....You've got to have him up in the rarified air haven't you?
Plenty of fighters burn bright but only for a short while . Longevity has to be part of the ranking.
Who is up with him? For me Ali, Floyd, Rocky and Dempsey, with Joe Louis, Lennox, Sugar Ray, Leonard, Hagler and Duran making up the table.
That's why these discussions are best kept light hearted and over a pint.
Unreal said:
Trouble is mate, no one here saw a lot of those old boys fight outside a few vintage recordings, some of which rival my dodgy German VHS videos for quality. Why haven't any of us mentioned Bob Fitzsimmons for example? Their toughness is indisputable but a lot of the quality has to be taken on trust and from the history books. So there is always going to a recency factor and in 75 years from now there'll be hardly anyone still alive who watched Usyk plus they'll have seen 1,000 other fighters come and go.
That's why these discussions are best kept light hearted and over a pint.
Yeah you're defo right with that ... The amount of Robinson's fights back at welter that are missing from film is significant...That's why these discussions are best kept light hearted and over a pint.
You're relying on who they beat to fill in the blanks.... Years ago when I was far more interested than I am these days I'd go through the records of someone like harry grab, looking up the records of the guys he beat.... And my god...
The irony that we only have a couple of minutes of footage of him f
king around despite his high standing p4p is nuts....But the number of hall of fame fighters he managed to beat is absolutely bonkers...I live in hope that a long lost old fight film of him emerges from someone's basement somewhere but what we do know is that he was an absolute terror from Middleweight and up... The number scalps he claimed seems beyond reality...
tuscaneer said:
Unreal said:
Trouble is mate, no one here saw a lot of those old boys fight outside a few vintage recordings, some of which rival my dodgy German VHS videos for quality. Why haven't any of us mentioned Bob Fitzsimmons for example? Their toughness is indisputable but a lot of the quality has to be taken on trust and from the history books. So there is always going to a recency factor and in 75 years from now there'll be hardly anyone still alive who watched Usyk plus they'll have seen 1,000 other fighters come and go.
That's why these discussions are best kept light hearted and over a pint.
Yeah you're defo right with that ... The amount of Robinson's fights back at welter that are missing from film is significant...That's why these discussions are best kept light hearted and over a pint.
You're relying on who they beat to fill in the blanks.... Years ago when I was far more interested than I am these days I'd go through the records of someone like harry grab, looking up the records of the guys he beat.... And my god...
The irony that we only have a couple of minutes of footage of him f
king around despite his high standing p4p is nuts....But the number of hall of fame fighters he managed to beat is absolutely bonkers...I live in hope that a long lost old fight film of him emerges from someone's basement somewhere but what we do know is that he was an absolute terror from Middleweight and up... The number scalps he claimed seems beyond reality...
tuscaneer said:
Unreal said:
Trouble is mate, no one here saw a lot of those old boys fight outside a few vintage recordings, some of which rival my dodgy German VHS videos for quality. Why haven't any of us mentioned Bob Fitzsimmons for example? Their toughness is indisputable but a lot of the quality has to be taken on trust and from the history books. So there is always going to a recency factor and in 75 years from now there'll be hardly anyone still alive who watched Usyk plus they'll have seen 1,000 other fighters come and go.
That's why these discussions are best kept light hearted and over a pint.
Yeah you're defo right with that ... The amount of Robinson's fights back at welter that are missing from film is significant...That's why these discussions are best kept light hearted and over a pint.
You're relying on who they beat to fill in the blanks.... Years ago when I was far more interested than I am these days I'd go through the records of someone like harry grab, looking up the records of the guys he beat.... And my god...
The irony that we only have a couple of minutes of footage of him f
king around despite his high standing p4p is nuts....But the number of hall of fame fighters he managed to beat is absolutely bonkers...I live in hope that a long lost old fight film of him emerges from someone's basement somewhere but what we do know is that he was an absolute terror from Middleweight and up... The number scalps he claimed seems beyond reality...
Unreal said:
Trouble is mate, no one here saw a lot of those old boys fight outside a few vintage recordings, some of which rival my dodgy German VHS videos for quality. Why haven't any of us mentioned Bob Fitzsimmons for example? Their toughness is indisputable but a lot of the quality has to be taken on trust and from the history books. So there is always going to a recency factor and in 75 years from now there'll be hardly anyone still alive who watched Usyk plus they'll have seen 1,000 other fighters come and go.
That's why these discussions are best kept light hearted and over a pint.
Yup, it’s also like comparing 100m sprinters from 80 years ago to today’s. AJs what like 15kg heavier than even George Forman, it’s like there’s another weight division these days that wasn’t humanly possible in the eras of the names that get listed as the best heavyweights ever. All too subjective to get excited about.That's why these discussions are best kept light hearted and over a pint.
Black_S3 said:
Yup, it’s also like comparing 100m sprinters from 80 years ago to today’s. AJs what like 15kg heavier than even George Forman, it’s like there’s another weight division these days that wasn’t humanly possible in the eras of the names that get listed as the best heavyweights ever. All too subjective to get excited about.
There were guys AJ's size in almost every era, they just weren't among the elite. Even Lennox is a little smaller than AJ.Primo Carnera was 6 foot 6 and over 260 in the 30s, Jess Willard the same even 20 years before that!! Both are lineal World Champions.
Buster Mathis fought Ali at over 250, he was a similar height to Ali, more of a Chisora/Whyte type of man.
There's definitely a lot more about now, but I think the relative popularity of boxing and the declining skill level of people able to compete as heavyweights has as much to do with that as having more athletic big men these days. I think Usyk has shown us that size can eventually become a burden, and speed and movement matter a lot. A good big man beats a good small man, but it's easier to be good when you're not 6 foot 7 IMO. The thing is, we haven't had many highly skilled heavyweights for a long time, so size has been winning by default.
Unreal said:
Yeah Greb was possibly an omission on my part - based on what we know. One tough mf. But as a fan and a student, you know it's so difficult to complie 'the list'. Now I'm typing this Arguello comes to mind. What a fighter he was. Probably after ten pints we might all agree on a top 100 but never on the order.
We could be here all week trying to pull the list....benny Leonard, ... I'll stop before I start!!Googie said:
Not a fighter I have heard of before so thanks for that-only man to have beaten Gene Tunney who he fought 5 times....
I won't spoil the fun of reading up on him but that series of fights sound mental... Tunney was SO much bigger than him and by all accounts and even Tunney himself greb could easily have got the nod in a couple more fights after that first one.... Him and Mickey walker but one I'd kill to see a film of...There aren't many books on greb but "give him to the angels" and "the fearless harry greb" are great...
Those pre 70’s fighters that make the lists that fought a lot more often than fighters do these days it’s even more interesting when you review their records and see how many other fighters they’ve fought that would also make the top 100.
Guys like Robinson, Ali, Moore, Griffiths, ezzard charles. If you gave them points for beating other top 100’s then perhaps it’d be less of a debate lol.
Pacquiao, floyd, Canelo, Usyk have all to an extent done it in the modern era I guess.
Guys like Robinson, Ali, Moore, Griffiths, ezzard charles. If you gave them points for beating other top 100’s then perhaps it’d be less of a debate lol.
Pacquiao, floyd, Canelo, Usyk have all to an extent done it in the modern era I guess.
Ring Magazine did a really interesting top 100 where they assigned points based on how many Ring-rated opponents people fought. Floyd came out in the top 10, so certainly possible to do so from the Modern Era if you take nothing but top contenders for years.
Published in several parts from here: https://www.ringtv.com/article/to-be-the-best-intr...
It's a good read
Published in several parts from here: https://www.ringtv.com/article/to-be-the-best-intr...
It's a good read
NuckyThompson said:
Those pre 70’s fighters that make the lists that fought a lot more often than fighters do these days it’s even more interesting when you review their records and see how many other fighters they’ve fought that would also make the top 100.
Guys like Robinson, Ali, Moore, Griffiths, ezzard charles. If you gave them points for beating other top 100’s then perhaps it’d be less of a debate lol.
Pacquiao, floyd, Canelo, Usyk have all to an extent done it in the modern era I guess.
Duran was a lightweight (maybe the best ever) and ended by fighting middleweights - all of them - and going 15 rounds with Hagler. Something like a 70% KO percentage and over 100 fights! Guys like Robinson, Ali, Moore, Griffiths, ezzard charles. If you gave them points for beating other top 100’s then perhaps it’d be less of a debate lol.
Pacquiao, floyd, Canelo, Usyk have all to an extent done it in the modern era I guess.
https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/80
Unreal said:
Duran was a lightweight (maybe the best ever) and ended by fighting middleweights - all of them - and going 15 rounds with Hagler. Something like a 70% KO percentage and over 100 fights!
https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/80
He even had wins at SMW!!! https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/80
Pugaris said:
There were guys AJ's size in almost every era, they just weren't among the elite. Even Lennox is a little smaller than AJ.
Primo Carnera was 6 foot 6 and over 260 in the 30s, Jess Willard the same even 20 years before that!! Both are lineal World Champions.
Buster Mathis fought Ali at over 250, he was a similar height to Ali, more of a Chisora/Whyte type of man.
There's definitely a lot more about now, but I think the relative popularity of boxing and the declining skill level of people able to compete as heavyweights has as much to do with that as having more athletic big men these days. I think Usyk has shown us that size can eventually become a burden, and speed and movement matter a lot. A good big man beats a good small man, but it's easier to be good when you're not 6 foot 7 IMO. The thing is, we haven't had many highly skilled heavyweights for a long time, so size has been winning by default.
I think it’s a game of numbers really… sure there were maybe a handful of call them 7 ft giants back then… now there’s maybe a few thousand round the world… eventually one will pop up that also has that other world natural ability without relying on just being a fairly good boxer that has a huge size advantage.. maybe the equivalent of Usain Bolt type thing.Primo Carnera was 6 foot 6 and over 260 in the 30s, Jess Willard the same even 20 years before that!! Both are lineal World Champions.
Buster Mathis fought Ali at over 250, he was a similar height to Ali, more of a Chisora/Whyte type of man.
There's definitely a lot more about now, but I think the relative popularity of boxing and the declining skill level of people able to compete as heavyweights has as much to do with that as having more athletic big men these days. I think Usyk has shown us that size can eventually become a burden, and speed and movement matter a lot. A good big man beats a good small man, but it's easier to be good when you're not 6 foot 7 IMO. The thing is, we haven't had many highly skilled heavyweights for a long time, so size has been winning by default.
Gassing Station | Sports | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff