Aston crash at Goodwood

[Heebeegeetee]

johnfelstead said:

I hate to break this to you, but it is a motorsport event, with an MSA permit and all the usual features of a speed event such as MSA Clerk of the Course, Scrutineers, timing staff etc. On the rear of all the tickets for entry there is a Motorpsort disclaimer, as you will find at any sanctioned event, along with the required signage at the spectator points informing you the event is a Motorsport event.

Some of the runners are timed in acordance with MSA procedures for a speed event, some are demonstratation runs which are untimed.

In fairness though, I think on watching the film clip I had completely forgotten that it is supposed to be a pukka motorsport event. Watching the clip, I was thinking "unsuitable surface, a race car leaving the road for no apparent reason at not a particularly high speed, unsuitable soaking wet straw bales, whats it all about?"

It may well be that the Goodwood hill has suffered more incidents than half a century at Shelsley. I think this is of concern, when one considers that there are some very fast cars indeed that compete at Shelsley throughout each year, which are driven absolutely balls out.

[Heebeegeetee]

Buelligan 984 said:

Heeb....

I fear you have utterly missed the point.

Do not do us all the dishonour of assuming we only drive cars.

If the first indiction you had of the "car in the ditch" was the sound of the undergrowth, exactly how long before that did you last really check your mirrors? Not just a "check 'cos I should" but a full on look and consider what I'm seeing kinda look?

Did the car appear in the ditch without you seeing it in your mirrors earlier, then noticing that it had disappeared from you view? How often do you check the mirrors? If you are driving a vehicle with big blind spots, that's not anyone else's problem, its your's. If you are not able to see a vehicle coming up in a ditch on the inside, you should be considering the possibility it could happen and not be surprised if it does.

I drafted a comprehensive reply to your earlier post, then deleted it - but you have carried on the debate so I have chosen to reply now.

I'd be happy to hear your reply,

Dave

I watched the car in my mirrors overtake me, (this was in Yogoslavia btw) I watched him cut in front of me and clip my cab, I watched him get pitched up onto two wheels totally broadside across me, and then watched him go down the ditch, I started to slow down and stop, and then watched in amazement as he continued along the ditch still trying to overtake me.

I realised he was going to attempt to run up the bank to get out of the ditch, and I realised that if he got in front of me it could result in him crashing into an oncoming lorry which might then kill me, so I accelerated past him. He did try to get up out of the ditch but didn't make it.

And yes, I still say I was surprised when he tried to overtake me in the ditch. I don't have much experience of this sort of thing, but I'd say that normally, when people go into ditches, they usually stop.

I don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever driven a car that has mirrors that point down into ditches.

You say that the blind spots are my problem and not anybody elses. A lot of people share your view, which is why they become a cropper when driving in lorry blindspots. I drive cars as well of course, but I make it my business to stay out of truck blind spots. That way, a truck won't hit me. I'm not the slightest bit bothered about the rights and wrongs of it, I just don't bother tangling with trucks, can't see the point, etc.

[Heebeegeetee]

johnfelstead said:

I hate to break this to you, but it is a motorsport event, with an MSA permit and all the usual features of a speed event such as MSA Clerk of the Course, Scrutineers, timing staff etc. On the rear of all the tickets for entry there is a Motorpsort disclaimer, as you will find at any sanctioned event, along with the required signage at the spectator points informing you the event is a Motorsport event.

Some of the runners are timed in acordance with MSA procedures for a speed event, some are demonstratation runs which are untimed.

In fairness, whilst watching that clip I had completely forgotten that this is supposed to be a pukka motorsport event. To me, the road surface appears totally unsuitable, and I didn't know that soaking wet straw bales could still be used as crash protection. I reckon the Goodwood hill has suffered possibly more incidents than half a century at Shelsley. At Shelsley a lot of the cars are very fast indeed, the quickest ones brutally so, and these get to be driven absolutely balls out.

That is definitley not the case at Goodwood, and the number of incidents/injuries should be of concern.

[thenick]

Don't know who the driver was, but I know whos car it was! It was a pretty much standard AMV8 owned by Chris Moss (ex Virgin exec, started 118118) and was pretty much brand new, having gone off to pull the standard seats out, have a roll cage fitted and some stickers stuck on the side. The reason he crashed was because he was running slicks and was rushed onto the track without having had time to change tyres after the rain, so i'm sure the slightly dodgy line, wet track with mud, and slick tyres amplified any small driver error to a critical level. Moss according to my mum (friends with Moss's sister), didn't seem too bothered by the loss of the Aston and just carried on with his weekend. Though from previous knowledge, i'm pretty sure the guy has a fair bit more money than sense...

[Heebeegeetee]

thenick said:

The reason he crashed was because he was running slicks and was rushed onto the track without having had time to change tyres after the rain,

Ooh, if the injured speccie wanted to sue, the car being on the wrong tyres for the conditions may well give him ground to do so, esp. if there was evidence that the driver was rushed to the track by the organisers.

Not that I want to see this sort of thing of course, but the fact that motorsport is dangerous doesn't absolve organisers from their responsibilities.

[havoc]

Bit of a rash statement...and depends rushed by who. But if true is a bit naughty. The organisers/marshals SHOULD know better, the driver SHOULD know better. In all honesty, if he was on slicks at all then it's bloody silly...


Edit: Hard to be sure from the pics on here and from my camera, but it looks like the tyres might have been cut slicks. Certainly less tread than road-tyres, possibly less than your road-legal trackday tyres...

Edited by havoc on Sunday 1st July 17:32

[figbat]

If anyone's interested this made it into the Chichester Observer - both online (http://www.chichester.co.uk/goodwoodfos?articleid=2990892 ) and in print. One of my pics was used!!

[stratosphere]

i saw the guy that owned the aston just after the crash he looked pretty gutted. i think the driver was Steven Smith of rally fame....didn't he win the championship and come runner up another year? i'd say anyone who buys a rally Aston probably has more money than sense... but then again without people like them we'd all spend our lives looking at boring Subarus.

[deevee]

havoc said:

Edit: Hard to be sure from the pics on here and from my camera, but it looks like the tyres might have been cut slicks. Certainly less tread than road-tyres, possibly less than your road-legal trackday tyres...

Edited by havoc on Sunday 1st July 17:32

Don't recognise the tread pattern, but look like cut slicks - certainly less tread than Michelin Pilot Sport Cups for example.

[Heebeegeetee]

stratosphere said:

i saw the guy that owned the aston just after the crash he looked pretty gutted. i think the driver was Steven Smith of rally fame....didn't he win the championship and come runner up another year? i'd say anyone who buys a rally Aston probably has more money than sense... but then again without people like them we'd all spend our lives looking at boring Subarus.

Isn't there a GT class started in rallying? This is something I meant to follow up on, 'cos I thought it a good idea.

I had also thought that if that guy is a decent driver (with wins and championships behind him) he's gonna be absolutely gutted that he's injured a spectator at Goodwood, of all places.

[Porlock]

Steve Smith. Normally piloting Historic Rally Cars.

[Napolis]

IMHO there was plenty of time before/between runs to change tires. The Marshals rushed no one. If anything the runs that day were running late.
The track was wet/muddy/and this was pointed out by the Marshals. There was also warning about the fact that there were off camber turns/ Blind corners etc. There was no pressure to run beyond your ability. There were repeated requests to run safely. He was going too fast and lost it. No more no less.

[Napolis]

Up the Hill in P 4/5...


[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]
Shot with [URL=http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=Canon+EOS-1D+Mark+II+N&make=Canon]Canon EOS-1D Mark II N[/URL] at 2007-07-09

[URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]
Shot with [URL=http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=Canon+EOS-1D+Mark+II+N&make=Canon]Canon EOS-1D Mark II N[/URL] at 2007-07-09

[ph123]

It was so great to see the Ferrari there Napolis. May I endorse what's been said before here, but bringing your P4/5 on this part of it's world tour was very special indeed.
Goodwood gets to have some really special moments that sets it apart. Stuff like the Chaparrals, 6/7 Royales together and Moss in the Ferguson, XJ13 etc.
So glad you made it and sincere admiration for all that you've done. Treasured pictures.

Edited by ph123 on Monday 9th July 18:42

[RainerM]

Hallo Napolis, Jim

What a great car, we were able to have a close look at it, just a real beauty as
a P3/4 in its time :-))))
Congratulations for starting in the rain, keeping it on the road and thank
you for that fantastic sound.....and
Thank you for putting such a car on the road! The trip to England for us was really
worth it.

Best regards,

Rainer and Dorothy

[Martin Keene]

Napolis said:

Up the Hill in P 4/5...

That's yours?

Your offically my new best friend!

Any chance of a ride...

[Napolis]

Martin Keene said:

Napolis said:

Up the Hill in P 4/5...

That's yours?

Your offically my new best friend!

Any chance of a ride...

Register here, enter the contest, and you never know...

http://ecirkit.com/ecirkit/Profile.jsp?id=92

[anonymous-user]

deevee said:

havoc said:

Edit: Hard to be sure from the pics on here and from my camera, but it looks like the tyres might have been cut slicks. Certainly less tread than road-tyres, possibly less than your road-legal trackday tyres...

Edited by havoc on Sunday 1st July 17:32

Don't recognise the tread pattern, but look like cut slicks - certainly less tread than Michelin Pilot Sport Cups for example.

Those are Dunlop D02J tyres, 100% road legal tyre for the fast road and trackday market, replacing the well known D01J tyre. They are not a cut slick, they are a proper E marked moulded tread pattern road tyre. They have a deaper tread pattern than Pilot Sport Cups and have a compound more suitable to short runs and the wet, the Pilot Sport Cups are designed for hotter running sustained circuit use. They are a perfectly adequate tyre for wet weather driving.

[anonymous-user]

Heebeegeetee said:

I didn't know that soaking wet straw bales could still be used as crash protection.

Goodwood bales have a vertical face fronting onto the track around 4 feet tall. They are 6 feet deep front to rear. They are made with progressive compression from soft(ish) face to really dense and hard rear half. They have also been treated with fire retardant. Tests years ago indicated that spilled fuel soaks into the body of the bale, and then only burns like a candle wick with very small flames flickering from the surface, and easily beaten down or smothered with extinguishant. Each bale is secured against hefty stakes driven deep into the ground. They meet all the requirements for an MSA event.

[Heebeegeetee]

johnfelstead said:

Heebeegeetee said:

I didn't know that soaking wet straw bales could still be used as crash protection.

Goodwood bales have a vertical face fronting onto the track around 4 feet tall. They are 6 feet deep front to rear. They are made with progressive compression from soft(ish) face to really dense and hard rear half. They have also been treated with fire retardant. Tests years ago indicated that spilled fuel soaks into the body of the bale, and then only burns like a candle wick with very small flames flickering from the surface, and easily beaten down or smothered with extinguishant. Each bale is secured against hefty stakes driven deep into the ground. They meet all the requirements for an MSA event.

Fair enough, its just that in the old days, bales when wet could go rock hard. Plus, not being smooth doesn't allow a vehicle to slide along them.

When I saw that Aston shatter, and parts go flying into the crowd, I thought that wet bales were possibly the worst thing to use and am surprised they're MSA 'legal'.

Are bales used anywhere else?