What's so good about Orange 5's
Discussion
As the title really, I'm in the market for a new full susser up to about £2.5k & the magazines seem to love this thing. Went to my LBS to sort out a ride on one & he asked me why would I want to buy a single pivot bike which is a 10 year old (plus) design as opposed to a new multilink type rear end. His point was that a single pivot rear end has a lot less rigidity to deal with lateral forces so isn't as effective as dealing with just going up or down. Now it could be that it's more of an issue to someone like me, as with kit on & camelback etc I must be about 18 stone. Following that chat I took their Giant Trance out for the day on Wednesday & loved it, was my first proper ride on a full bouncer (Currently ride an '08 Gary Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo). The shop is an Orange dealer amongst others so he doesn't have a vested interest in trying to talk me out of one, but says the Trance is his favourite ever full suss bike.
A full suss is compeletely OTT for 90% of the riding I do, but twice a year a gang of us head to Welsh trail centres for a weekend of riding, & this year I spent 6 days up there riding. Next year, if all goes to plan, I am aiming to do the Passportes Du Soliel & have a week riding over there, so can easily justify to myself I need to spend this much on a bike
So what does the PH Pedal Powered gang think, am I too lardy for an Orange five & should I stick to my current shortlist of a Trance X1 or Trek Fuel EX9 ?
A full suss is compeletely OTT for 90% of the riding I do, but twice a year a gang of us head to Welsh trail centres for a weekend of riding, & this year I spent 6 days up there riding. Next year, if all goes to plan, I am aiming to do the Passportes Du Soliel & have a week riding over there, so can easily justify to myself I need to spend this much on a bike
So what does the PH Pedal Powered gang think, am I too lardy for an Orange five & should I stick to my current shortlist of a Trance X1 or Trek Fuel EX9 ?
single pivots are easy to maintain as there are less things to go wrong. Try a 5 and see for yourself. They are great bikes, albiet expensive.
I've got a Cube Stereo with a 4 point rear pivot, tried my mates 5 and it felt brilliant.
Although I am sligtly biased as the Orange workhop is a mile from my house :-)
I've got a Cube Stereo with a 4 point rear pivot, tried my mates 5 and it felt brilliant.
Although I am sligtly biased as the Orange workhop is a mile from my house :-)
I've got a 2007 Trance frame with the 4.2" travel (think they are all 5" now?) and it suits my riding perfectly. Rather strangely, I find it easier on the climbs than my Hardrock, there's no bouncing around when I pedal it just tracks the ground nicely. Then when the trail starts to point downward it flies. It sits very nicely between lots of comfort and lots of feedback from the trail. Personally, I like how it doesn't isolate everything so you still have to concentrate, but it will allow more room for error than a hardtail.
I've ridden it back to back with a Commencal Meta 5.5.5 and a GT iDrive and the Trance would be the one I choose every time.
For me, the Trance takes everything I throw at it. It will happily take on the red route at Glentress and also some playing around in the freeride park without even a hint of a complaint. It isn't too much work for the odd road section either.
It's custom built so here's a picture so you can get an idea of the spec I've got:
It has a couple of different parts now but it's mostly the same.
Let us know what you decide on!
I've ridden it back to back with a Commencal Meta 5.5.5 and a GT iDrive and the Trance would be the one I choose every time.
For me, the Trance takes everything I throw at it. It will happily take on the red route at Glentress and also some playing around in the freeride park without even a hint of a complaint. It isn't too much work for the odd road section either.
It's custom built so here's a picture so you can get an idea of the spec I've got:
It has a couple of different parts now but it's mostly the same.
Let us know what you decide on!
baxb said:
His point was that a single pivot rear end has a lot less rigidity to deal with lateral forces so isn't as effective as dealing with just going up or down.
The rear ends on moto GP bikes and Mx bikes must all be seriously compromised then? I think by construction, a single pivot has *more* lateral ridigity then a multi link rear end?Let's not get carried away with the rear end of MTBs, where the lateral torque is not even approaching 10% of that on their powered cousins in the motorbike world....
OK...
Forced ex owner.
The rear end ridgidity issue is a complete red herring. If that is a problem then the new 5's have a optional Maxle rear end that makes the rear end stiff as anything.
The joys of a single pivot is simplicity and efficiency. There is not a load of pivots in the way of a clean and simple action. The difficulty is that getting the geo right on a single pivot is VERY difficult. Many manufacturers have tried and all but 2 have failed. Commencal and Orange. At the moment Commencal have quality issues and an awkward angle on the seat stay. They have also taken a single pivot then stuffed a load of pivots to the shock.
The critisims of single pivots are that the action of the sus arm pushes the wheel forward towards the back of the seat when optimaly the action should be rearward or scribe an arc in order to keep the chain at a steady tension.
They are also sueptable to brake jack. Movement of the rear arm, forcing the bike to squat when braking. This is an issue when going fast into a rough bend and you apply the brakes. Most riders wouldnt notice it, I have seen a small sign of it on a nervous bend over a cliff that is very rutted at about 30mph, or it could be that I am s
t scared of a 200ft drop off a cliff on to rocks....
Bull - the movement is 140mm, it is very little and mechanically with a wheel rotating there is very little to stop the arc of the rear sus having a sensible dampening curve and action.
Measure out 14cm and it isnt a lot, any modern rear mech can easily absorb any chain movement over this arc especially as the pivot is so close to the chainring and there isnt a lot to absorb. Even if the total movement in the chain was 14cm, most mech could absorb it!
The joy of the '5 is in its simplicity. It really does flatter the rider, I have very little skill and finesse but I can hold it with the best. It is a confident bike which makes you feel great when you ride it. It is strong and durable and the damage inflicted upon mine would have killed any other bike. It requires very little maintenance and spares are VERY easy to obtain. It is a swoopy and flowwy bike that feels alive and positive. It will help you out of stupid situations and bring a grin to your face EVERY ride.
Suspension Gurus and MTB snobs dont like the 5 because it is so damn good at its job and so simple.
God I miss my bike.
Someone said expensive - rubbish, I am looking for a bike atm because of theft and there are not any decent bikes for the money and spec. Cant get close with any other hand built bike. Remember, these bikes are built for the British conditions.
Forced ex owner.
The rear end ridgidity issue is a complete red herring. If that is a problem then the new 5's have a optional Maxle rear end that makes the rear end stiff as anything.
The joys of a single pivot is simplicity and efficiency. There is not a load of pivots in the way of a clean and simple action. The difficulty is that getting the geo right on a single pivot is VERY difficult. Many manufacturers have tried and all but 2 have failed. Commencal and Orange. At the moment Commencal have quality issues and an awkward angle on the seat stay. They have also taken a single pivot then stuffed a load of pivots to the shock.
The critisims of single pivots are that the action of the sus arm pushes the wheel forward towards the back of the seat when optimaly the action should be rearward or scribe an arc in order to keep the chain at a steady tension.
They are also sueptable to brake jack. Movement of the rear arm, forcing the bike to squat when braking. This is an issue when going fast into a rough bend and you apply the brakes. Most riders wouldnt notice it, I have seen a small sign of it on a nervous bend over a cliff that is very rutted at about 30mph, or it could be that I am s
t scared of a 200ft drop off a cliff on to rocks....Bull - the movement is 140mm, it is very little and mechanically with a wheel rotating there is very little to stop the arc of the rear sus having a sensible dampening curve and action.
Measure out 14cm and it isnt a lot, any modern rear mech can easily absorb any chain movement over this arc especially as the pivot is so close to the chainring and there isnt a lot to absorb. Even if the total movement in the chain was 14cm, most mech could absorb it!
The joy of the '5 is in its simplicity. It really does flatter the rider, I have very little skill and finesse but I can hold it with the best. It is a confident bike which makes you feel great when you ride it. It is strong and durable and the damage inflicted upon mine would have killed any other bike. It requires very little maintenance and spares are VERY easy to obtain. It is a swoopy and flowwy bike that feels alive and positive. It will help you out of stupid situations and bring a grin to your face EVERY ride.
Suspension Gurus and MTB snobs dont like the 5 because it is so damn good at its job and so simple.
God I miss my bike.
Someone said expensive - rubbish, I am looking for a bike atm because of theft and there are not any decent bikes for the money and spec. Cant get close with any other hand built bike. Remember, these bikes are built for the British conditions.
Edited by Gooby on Friday 11th December 15:59
Thanks for the feedback fella's. I'm not too worried about the reliabilty issue of multi pivot bikes as thanks to living in the flatlands of the East & working every Saturday & every other Sunday my chances to ride the bike properly are limited & friends with that type of set up have had no problems. Gooby - firstly I hope the scrotes that nicked yours get the castrating they deserve. You make a very good point in that accepting i'm not (& never will be) a riding god, am I going to notice what the rear is doing as I'm hanging on for dear life charging down a hill ?
At the very least I need to have a sit on one & see how they feel compared to the others. I'm planning to have it sorted before year end so I will report back with the result (or more questions)
Cheers
At the very least I need to have a sit on one & see how they feel compared to the others. I'm planning to have it sorted before year end so I will report back with the result (or more questions)
Cheers
To put it simply, it just works. Very little to maintain; in the 4 years or so I owned my Patriot, I changed the bearings(x2) once. I used to ride it most weekends and i'm a big fan of downhills, jumps and general mucking about so it got used a lot. The back end is very stiff, and for me at least, it seemed to come alive the faster I went. In a way, it "egged" me on.
I'd love to have one again funds permitting.
The brake jack is annoying at first, but once you have mastered it, you can use it into a corner to push the back end down into the ground. Makes for very fast cornering.
I swapped that frame for a Kona coiler after a crash on the Patriot, and it's not in the same league. It'e better at the smaller bumps, but it doesn't get better the quicker you go. This is very similar for a lot of multi-pivot frames I have ridden(I'm sure some people will shoot me down for those last comments, but that's my take on it).
I'd love to have one again funds permitting.
The brake jack is annoying at first, but once you have mastered it, you can use it into a corner to push the back end down into the ground. Makes for very fast cornering.
I swapped that frame for a Kona coiler after a crash on the Patriot, and it's not in the same league. It'e better at the smaller bumps, but it doesn't get better the quicker you go. This is very similar for a lot of multi-pivot frames I have ridden(I'm sure some people will shoot me down for those last comments, but that's my take on it).
OK. The single pivot is a simpler/easier to maintain option. BUT, having tried many bikes in the £2.5k bracket, I personally preferred the multipivots.
If you want an all mountain/XC bike, the Lapierre Zesty, Trek EX, Cannondale Rize/RZ ride better IMO.
Try them all. I plumped for a Cannondale Rize, which is a superb bike.
If you want an all mountain/XC bike, the Lapierre Zesty, Trek EX, Cannondale Rize/RZ ride better IMO.
Try them all. I plumped for a Cannondale Rize, which is a superb bike.
baxb said:
the magazines seem to love this thing.
So what does the PH Pedal Powered gang think, am I too lardy for an Orange five & should I stick to my current shortlist of a Trance X1 or Trek Fuel EX9 ?
In a fairly recent review in MBR they raved about the Orange Five. They summarised it as saying something along the lines of it is agricultural, heavy and generally outdated but fun to ride. 9/10So what does the PH Pedal Powered gang think, am I too lardy for an Orange five & should I stick to my current shortlist of a Trance X1 or Trek Fuel EX9 ?
They marked down the Giant as being too technically proficient and doing everything well but with very little emotion. 6 to 8/10 from memory.
I thought that the scores were at odds with the text but all became clear when in the next review they talked about being lent some one off Orange 5 special and generally being treated like kings by Orange. No such news from Giant.
Now I am not slating the Orange as I have not ridden it but I do own a Giant Trance X that is amazing. It truly s
ts on my previous Specialneeds Epic in all areas. I fully agree with what MBR said, it does everything very well but I think that this is a bonus.The Maestro system on the Giant uses a single floating virtual pivot (designed by Mr Tefal-Head) that is designed to give fully active travel all of the time without pedal bob. It does this very well. Single pivot designs can bob and waste energy or become inactive when pedalling but I do not know if the Orange suffers this.
I was put off the Treks due to frame failures (base of left seat stay) being reported a lot although I believe that this is not an issue on the newer bikes.
The Treks have more funky / striking paint jobs and some of the Giant colours look pants which have put a few people off. Mine is the same silver as the Trance above and looks really plain as all of my components are silver or black. I like this but can understand that other people may not. The main advantage is that chavs don't look for more than a second so hopefully it does not get noticed / will not get stolen despite being very high spec.
Master Mischief said:
baxb said:
the magazines seem to love this thing.
So what does the PH Pedal Powered gang think, am I too lardy for an Orange five & should I stick to my current shortlist of a Trance X1 or Trek Fuel EX9 ?
In a fairly recent review in MBR they raved about the Orange Five. They summarised it as saying something along the lines of it is agricultural, heavy and generally outdated but fun to ride. 9/10So what does the PH Pedal Powered gang think, am I too lardy for an Orange five & should I stick to my current shortlist of a Trance X1 or Trek Fuel EX9 ?
They marked down the Giant as being too technically proficient and doing everything well but with very little emotion. 6 to 8/10 from memory.
I thought that the scores were at odds with the text but all became clear when in the next review they talked about being lent some one off Orange 5 special and generally being treated like kings by Orange. No such news from Giant.
Now I am not slating the Orange as I have not ridden it but I do own a Giant Trance X that is amazing. It truly s
ts on my previous Specialneeds Epic in all areas. I fully agree with what MBR said, it does everything very well but I think that this is a bonus.The Maestro system on the Giant uses a single floating virtual pivot (designed by Mr Tefal-Head) that is designed to give fully active travel all of the time without pedal bob. It does this very well. Single pivot designs can bob and waste energy or become inactive when pedalling but I do not know if the Orange suffers this.
I was put off the Treks due to frame failures (base of left seat stay) being reported a lot although I believe that this is not an issue on the newer bikes.
The Treks have more funky / striking paint jobs and some of the Giant colours look pants which have put a few people off. Mine is the same silver as the Trance above and looks really plain as all of my components are silver or black. I like this but can understand that other people may not. The main advantage is that chavs don't look for more than a second so hopefully it does not get noticed / will not get stolen despite being very high spec.
Back to topic, I have 2 friends with 5s and they love them
zebedee said:
Master Mischief said:
In a fairly recent review in MBR they raved about the Orange Five. They summarised it as saying something along the lines of it is agricultural, heavy and generally outdated but fun to ride. 9/10
They marked down the Giant as being too technically proficient and doing everything well but with very little emotion. 6 to 8/10 from memory.
I thought that the scores were at odds with the text...
Raved about how good my Trance X is.
Surely all they are saying is that the bike that is a bit too competent does too much for you and takes the involvement away? I'd rather get to the bottom of a black run 2 minutes later but having absolutely loved riding on the edge, feeling everything the bike did, than get there 2 minutes earlier having had the whole trail smothered by wonderfully supple suspension and a simple turn of the bars here and there. Looks very much like what the motoring press have been saying about many quick Audis for a while - devastatingly quick, but ultimately not that involving, so better to look elsewhere. Then again I refuse to buy a full sus and love riding hardtails for the very reason that you have so much more to do if you want to ride quickly (admittedly once you are onto full DH pace on a DH rig, those guys deserve massive respect) but most brit trails don't need full sus at all. I once had a guy at cannock chase quip that I had managed to stick with him, despite being on a hard tail! I wasn't sticking with him, he was holding me up because he was on a full sus - that place is practically flat and smooth, the fact that people think that full sus will be superior there shows the general level of ignorance in the buying public I think. They must equate full sus with supercars, whereas a quick hardtail could only be like a hot saloon, but depending on the terrain, the opposite is true. They marked down the Giant as being too technically proficient and doing everything well but with very little emotion. 6 to 8/10 from memory.
I thought that the scores were at odds with the text...
Raved about how good my Trance X is.
Back to topic, I have 2 friends with 5s and they love them
It is worth pointing out that my Trance X is a large with flat bars. One criticism can be the tall head tube and I think that this is more of an issue in the smaller sizes. My bar height is perfect for me. Also, the angles are a bit steeper than some rivals but I have a TALAS 150-130-110 fork so I can slacken things up for really steep stuff (rarely required) or lower the front further for killer climbs so again I find it just right.
You are correct that FS is certainly not necessary a lot of the time and that a well ridden hard tail can be faster. However there are situations where hard tails cannot touch FS, for example very bumpy fast sections that require pedal input. Both is the ideal solution but a hard tail is more limited than a good FS if the rider wants to explore far and wide with just one bike.
I think that everyone (who does their homework) loves their own bike for obvious reasons.
Master Mischief said:
I can see what you are saying about technical over proficiency but the Giant does really come to life if pushed. A review on bike radar initially slates it for being a bit numb but then a second reviewer pushes it harder and raves about it. All of the reader comments (presumably owners) also rave about it. In my opinion the Trance X is perfect for long, challenging rides but also great fun elsewhere. Again, I cannot comment on the Orange as I have not ridden one.
It is worth pointing out that my Trance X is a large with flat bars. One criticism can be the tall head tube and I think that this is more of an issue in the smaller sizes. My bar height is perfect for me. Also, the angles are a bit steeper than some rivals but I have a TALAS 150-130-110 fork so I can slacken things up for really steep stuff (rarely required) or lower the front further for killer climbs so again I find it just right.
You are correct that FS is certainly not necessary a lot of the time and that a well ridden hard tail can be faster. However there are situations where hard tails cannot touch FS, for example very bumpy fast sections that require pedal input. Both is the ideal solution but a hard tail is more limited than a good FS if the rider wants to explore far and wide with just one bike.
I think that everyone (who does their homework) loves their own bike for obvious reasons.
I dont want to question your taste of bikes because it is very personal BUT what you have said is a bike that is briliant when pushed hard is better than one that is brilliant fun at all speeds and terrains?It is worth pointing out that my Trance X is a large with flat bars. One criticism can be the tall head tube and I think that this is more of an issue in the smaller sizes. My bar height is perfect for me. Also, the angles are a bit steeper than some rivals but I have a TALAS 150-130-110 fork so I can slacken things up for really steep stuff (rarely required) or lower the front further for killer climbs so again I find it just right.
You are correct that FS is certainly not necessary a lot of the time and that a well ridden hard tail can be faster. However there are situations where hard tails cannot touch FS, for example very bumpy fast sections that require pedal input. Both is the ideal solution but a hard tail is more limited than a good FS if the rider wants to explore far and wide with just one bike.
I think that everyone (who does their homework) loves their own bike for obvious reasons.
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