RE: F1 Engineers Build Super (Push) Bike
Discussion
WorAl said:
rhinochopig said:
Not constrained by regs and yet shares the same basic frame layout and rider position with every other road bike - disappointed!
Was thinking the same thing.http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getObject.asp?Me...
If you throw away the regs you'll probably arrive at a recumbent, something like this.
Always interesting to see a fresh take on road bike design.
In reality you could go to a dozen or more bike manufacturers or shops and get an equally advanced, significantly lighter and faster (and easier to service!) machine with similar data recording features for less than a quarter of the price.
Nice gift for a corporate sponsor/F1 Driver/millionaire who has everything though.
In reality you could go to a dozen or more bike manufacturers or shops and get an equally advanced, significantly lighter and faster (and easier to service!) machine with similar data recording features for less than a quarter of the price.
Nice gift for a corporate sponsor/F1 Driver/millionaire who has everything though.
deevlash said:
Honda made this bike too, and greg minaar won the world championships with it. It was shrouded in secrecy at the time and the gearbox was a sealed unit. They never sold them comercially and they were all broken up after the project was finished. These things were silly expensive for a pushbike
This was truly sad. Honda should of seen the benefit in racing this bike and if not should of sold on the design as it was a very competent bike
deevlash said:
Honda made this bike too, and greg minaar won the world championships with it. It was shrouded in secrecy at the time and the gearbox was a sealed unit. They never sold them comercially and they were all broken up after the project was finished. These things were silly expensive for a pushbike
This was truly sad. Honda should of seen the benefit in racing this bike and if not should of sold on the design as it was a very competent bikedeevlash said:
Honda made this bike too, and greg minaar won the world championships with it. It was shrouded in secrecy at the time and the gearbox was a sealed unit. They never sold them comercially and they were all broken up after the project was finished. These things were silly expensive for a pushbike
This was truly sad. Honda should of seen the benefit in racing this bike and if not should of sold on the design as it was a very competent bikepablo said:
no disrespect but you're not a cyclist are you? the only data you really need as a pro cyclist can be gained through a power meter and a garmin (bike specific) gps system. you can get data on cadence, watts etc quite easily. also, you train on a bike very similar to your race bike, after all button et al dont practice in a touring car then race in F1 do they?
the bike is simply a solution to a problem that doesnt exist. its a design exercise but what exactly have they done that will be incorporated onto other bikes or done different? and a front disc brake on a road bike? lots of rich solicitors will buy one and keep it in their apartments to impress their mates...
Nope, i'm not a serious cyclist - I am looking at it from an engineering point of view.the bike is simply a solution to a problem that doesnt exist. its a design exercise but what exactly have they done that will be incorporated onto other bikes or done different? and a front disc brake on a road bike? lots of rich solicitors will buy one and keep it in their apartments to impress their mates...
From what I can see, the power meters do not really give you all that much detail in the data of your riding (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but the output seems to be pretty much either instantaneous power values, or averaged values).
With the tech on the Beru bike, I see no reason why you couldn't get full data for each rotation of the pedals which you analyse to figure out where you could increase your output and hence modify your technique based on that info. Thats just one example - I can think of other parameters you could monitor which may help maximise the power a rider delivers.
From reading forums/blogs in response to this bike, it feels to me like many cyclists aren't especially willing to consider new technology which could be beneficial to their riding. Admittedly 99.9% of people wouldn't ever be the target market for a product such as this but the resistance to change has surprised me.
Out of interest, what do you think about this kind of approach to developing a rider? http://www.drag2zero.co.uk/
Frik said:
Rich_W said:
On a side note, having seen various McLarens (F1 cars) up close. The build quality of those isn't as high as you'd expect.
Little bit better than your average Ferrari though...
and exactly how many WDC / Constructors have those pesky red cars got in the last decade vs the silver ones? 
Can't comment on the F1 road car. The SLR's aint much better either!egomeister said:
With the tech on the Beru bike, I see no reason why you couldn't get full data for each rotation of the pedals which you analyse to figure out where you could increase your output and hence modify your technique based on that info. Thats just one example - I can think of other parameters you could monitor which may help maximise the power a rider delivers.
But that's a parameter that's already been worked out. Push scrape pull step. You just don't need to analyse every second of every 100mile ride. No 2 corners are the same. Unlike circuit motorsport. And the rider would gain more from training more efficently and monitoring their nutritional requirements, rather than covering a bike in sensors. You have to believe that if was worth the effort, the works TDF teams would have already gone there. But they put their resources into other areas. Lance Armstrong on my bike and me on his would still leave me standing!egomeister said:
From reading forums/blogs in response to this bike, it feels to me like many cyclists aren't especially willing to consider new technology which could be beneficial to their riding. Admittedly 99.9% of people wouldn't ever be the target market for a product such as this but the resistance to change has surprised me.
Sorry, but have you ever seen bike meets. Everyone cares about bling. People spending hundreds to get a part that's 50g lighter. 
egomeister said:
Out of interest, what do you think about this kind of approach to developing a rider? http://www.drag2zero.co.uk/
It's interesting. I heard figures the other day (scientific SICI based) that your body accounts for 90% of the drag when riding. However, there are sacrifices to be made. The most obvious being long term comfort and control over the bike. Setting a rider to be as aero as possible is focussing on 1 element. A good operating position on the bike (ala "Retul" systems) is far more of a percentage gain. Also Triathlon competitors will have a slightly different setup so as to save their lower legs for the run. Again this may involve using a less than perfect aero position. Aeros worth considering, but I believe it's not the most important.Edited by Rich_W on Wednesday 17th February 22:36
Rich_W said:
egomeister said:
With the tech on the Beru bike, I see no reason why you couldn't get full data for each rotation of the pedals which you analyse to figure out where you could increase your output and hence modify your technique based on that info. Thats just one example - I can think of other parameters you could monitor which may help maximise the power a rider delivers.
But that's a parameter that's already been worked out. Push scrape pull step. You just don't need to analyse every second of every 100mile ride. No 2 corners are the same. Unlike circuit motorsport. And the rider would gain more from training more efficently and monitoring their nutritional requirements, rather than covering a bike in sensors. You have to believe that if was worth the effort, the works TDF teams would have already gone there. But they put their resources into other areas. Lance Armstrong on my bike and me on his would still leave me standing!Rich_W said:
egomeister said:
Out of interest, what do you think about this kind of approach to developing a rider? http://www.drag2zero.co.uk/
It's interesting. I heard figures the other day (scientific SICI based) that your body accounts for 90% of the drag when riding. However, there are sacrifices to be made. The most obvious being long term comfort and control over the bike. Setting a rider to be as aero as possible is focussing on 1 element. A good operating position on the bike (ala "Retul" systems) is far more of a percentage gain. Also Triathlon competitors will have a slightly different setup so as to save their lower legs for the run. Again this may involve using a less than perfect aero position. Aeros worth considering, but I believe it's not the most important.Cycle tech has come on massively in recent times, and being an engineer I like to see products that try to push things forward with a bit of science behind them rather than superficial marketing bling!
egomeister said:
pablo said:
no disrespect but you're not a cyclist are you? the only data you really need as a pro cyclist can be gained through a power meter and a garmin (bike specific) gps system. you can get data on cadence, watts etc quite easily. also, you train on a bike very similar to your race bike, after all button et al dont practice in a touring car then race in F1 do they?
the bike is simply a solution to a problem that doesnt exist. its a design exercise but what exactly have they done that will be incorporated onto other bikes or done different? and a front disc brake on a road bike? lots of rich solicitors will buy one and keep it in their apartments to impress their mates...
Nope, i'm not a serious cyclist - I am looking at it from an engineering point of view.the bike is simply a solution to a problem that doesnt exist. its a design exercise but what exactly have they done that will be incorporated onto other bikes or done different? and a front disc brake on a road bike? lots of rich solicitors will buy one and keep it in their apartments to impress their mates...
From what I can see, the power meters do not really give you all that much detail in the data of your riding (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but the output seems to be pretty much either instantaneous power values, or averaged values).
With the tech on the Beru bike, I see no reason why you couldn't get full data for each rotation of the pedals which you analyse to figure out where you could increase your output and hence modify your technique based on that info. Thats just one example - I can think of other parameters you could monitor which may help maximise the power a rider delivers.
From reading forums/blogs in response to this bike, it feels to me like many cyclists aren't especially willing to consider new technology which could be beneficial to their riding. Admittedly 99.9% of people wouldn't ever be the target market for a product such as this but the resistance to change has surprised me.
Out of interest, what do you think about this kind of approach to developing a rider? http://www.drag2zero.co.uk/
I also think cyclists are very very willing to consider new technology (I can't see any new technology in this project). Leading professional and amateur cyclists and manufacturers have been using wind tunnel testing to improve their performance for decades but obviously the cost has generally been prohibative for the average amateur. As has been touched upon, the most aerodynamically efficient position is not always the most efficient as going too low can start to restrict and impair the efficiency of lungs and diaphram thus reducing power - hence the relatively high time trialing positions of Indurain and Armstrong. From a technology and physiological perspective cyclesport is actually quite a sophisticated sport!
I wish the very best for all concerned in this project, if it provides jobs for designers and engineers in the UK it is to be supported.
Edited by Roman on Thursday 18th February 00:18
the most effective training tool is the wattbike.
there are too many subjectives to fully record data from a road training ride and for that data to be effective, weather, other riders, conditions of the road etc
i think cyclists are very much keen to adapt new technology, you just need to look at the new shimano d12 groupset to see that new technology is embraced, belt drive is a feature on many "urban" bikes, internal gear hubs now work and frame materials are now wider and varied.
drag2zero is quite effective and well considered. one certain somerset f1 driver promoted it when he recently competed in the blenheim triathlon and it got a lot of press covereage.
there are some things the beru measures that just appear to be the result of "because we can". force loads through chain stays for example should not be affected once the ideal pedalling stroke is achieved and that can simply be done through a power meter and a video camera!
there are too many subjectives to fully record data from a road training ride and for that data to be effective, weather, other riders, conditions of the road etc
i think cyclists are very much keen to adapt new technology, you just need to look at the new shimano d12 groupset to see that new technology is embraced, belt drive is a feature on many "urban" bikes, internal gear hubs now work and frame materials are now wider and varied.
drag2zero is quite effective and well considered. one certain somerset f1 driver promoted it when he recently competed in the blenheim triathlon and it got a lot of press covereage.
there are some things the beru measures that just appear to be the result of "because we can". force loads through chain stays for example should not be affected once the ideal pedalling stroke is achieved and that can simply be done through a power meter and a video camera!
They've made the seat as uncomfortable as possible to make the cyclist get to the finish line faster.
I've had the same mountain bike for almost 10 years now and every other bike I ride isn't anywhere near as comfortable. Considering pro cyclists have the geometry of the framses made to suit their needs, for them to get the best out of this bike over a long distance, they'd have to specify the geometry and I guess even the gear ratios.
It would be interesting to hear pro cyclists opinion of the bike....
I've had the same mountain bike for almost 10 years now and every other bike I ride isn't anywhere near as comfortable. Considering pro cyclists have the geometry of the framses made to suit their needs, for them to get the best out of this bike over a long distance, they'd have to specify the geometry and I guess even the gear ratios.
It would be interesting to hear pro cyclists opinion of the bike....
wong said:
Disc brakes - probably better ( esp. in wet) than dual pivots, however do not allow quick wheel changes. Think puncture in a road race.
And people want what the TDF riders have despite the regulations.
Disc brakes also run the risk of overwhelming skinny tyres. If I can stand my road bike on it's nose with rim brakes, what the hell is the point of discs?And people want what the TDF riders have despite the regulations.
...unless, it's just because you can't run rim brakes on a carbon wheel?
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