Two Abreast - aggressive British drivers
Discussion
PinkHouse said:
To be fair it was in response to the talk of mandatory re-training for drivers where he pointed out that cyclists have no mandatory training. It's a double standard to call one trolling and not call out the other. Perhaps because this is the cycling section of the forum after all
85% of adult cyclists in the UK have a driving licence, so have undergone at least as much training as drivers - because they're the same people.Kerniki said:
Salted_Peanut said:
heebeegeetee said:
We really need mandatory retraining of drivers.
give them road tax to pay and an identification plate of some kind?
Edited by Kerniki on Monday 13th November 12:02
As for identification plate? What do you think that would achieve?
thepritch said:
mcelliott said:
If you’re a powerfully built director there’s no way you should be riding 2 abreast, instead you should have 20 riders all lined out in single file trying to hold onto your wheel, as you were
Thank you for this. In amongst 20 pages of dross, it raised a smile. Then a grimace, when I remember the pain of being at the back. 
Back on topic.
I've ridden all over the world, and the British drivers are amongst the worse, if not THE worst.
But, negative events are far far from the norm. I can't remember the last time I had bad/dangerous/inappropriate driving impact me when either riding solo or on a group ride. I get way way more issues from car drivers when driving than cycling - but granted I don't ride anywhere close to cities/build-up areas.
The odd marginally close pass, perhaps the odd oncoming overtake when not leaving quote as such space as ideal, but not enough to warrant getting irate about.
From my experience, the worst of both cyclist and drivers are those sat ranting on a keyboard, not actually out on the roads.
I've ridden all over the world, and the British drivers are amongst the worse, if not THE worst.
But, negative events are far far from the norm. I can't remember the last time I had bad/dangerous/inappropriate driving impact me when either riding solo or on a group ride. I get way way more issues from car drivers when driving than cycling - but granted I don't ride anywhere close to cities/build-up areas.
The odd marginally close pass, perhaps the odd oncoming overtake when not leaving quote as such space as ideal, but not enough to warrant getting irate about.
From my experience, the worst of both cyclist and drivers are those sat ranting on a keyboard, not actually out on the roads.
Julian Scott said:
From my experience, the worst of both cyclist and drivers are those sat ranting on a keyboard, not actually out on the roads.
Fair point, and certainly the reason why I've been watching this thread but posting very little. As both a cyclist (two bikes!) and driver I see both sides of the picture. Some drivers are impatient and some cyclists put themselves at the very pinnacle of "entitlement". Consideration is a two way street.
I think there are factors that make British roads particularly unsuitable for the enjoyment of cycling - it's the combination of narrow roads, heavy traffic and lack of proper road maintenance. For this reason I try to cycle in places that are suitable for cycling rather than in places that aren't, and try to show motorists the same level of consideration I hope they might show me.
Red9zero said:
thepritch said:
mcelliott said:
If you’re a powerfully built director there’s no way you should be riding 2 abreast, instead you should have 20 riders all lined out in single file trying to hold onto your wheel, as you were
Thank you for this. In amongst 20 pages of dross, it raised a smile. Then a grimace, when I remember the pain of being at the back. 
always the best way, laughter
i think many in the uk have difficulty with that one unfortunately, for them.RoadToad84 said:
witko999 said:
Single file cyclists are easier to overtake in many situations because of the sheer number of parked cars on the road in the UK. If a car comes up behind single file cyclists and there are parked cars on the opposite side of the road, it is often still possible to overtake between the cyclist and the parked cars whilst leaving a safe gap. If the cyclists are two abreast, the same situation is not possible.
It's very simplistic to just assume that the overtaking car can go fully onto the oncoming carriageway in all situations.
I think that's a given. All the riders commenting here so far acknowledge that 2 abreast is only acceptable when the road conditions allow for it, i.e not on single track lanes or when other restrictions are present. 2 abreast on a clear 2 lane road makes zero difference to a safe and legal overtake, beyond reducing the amount of time/distance the overtaking vehicle needs to be over the white line. It's very simplistic to just assume that the overtaking car can go fully onto the oncoming carriageway in all situations.
carlo996 said:
Kerniki said:
And maybe some initial training of cyclists?
give them road tax to pay and an identification plate of some kind?
Not sure if troll, or stupid? give them road tax to pay and an identification plate of some kind?
Edited by Kerniki on Monday 13th November 12:02
Bournemouth. Beryl Bikes share/hire scheme. E-scooters. They have "registration plates". Located on the rear "mudguard" of the scooter, a unique identifying number for that unit. And so small that, in terms of identifying that unit while it's moving, they're about as much use as tits on a flatfish. Japan. ALL bicycles need to have a sticker with a unique identifying number registered and attached to the frame at purchase. But the sticker is often affixed to the top tube, where it cannot be seen when the bicycle is in motion. Reason for the stickers? Less for "report wrong'uns while they're riding" and more for theft prevention/recovery (not that it's a huge problem over there), but most often used when police/local authorities remove inconsiderately locked bicycles. Owner then gets fined before they can get the bike back. There has, to my knowledge, been no successfully implemented registration scheme that has included a "plate" which can in any way be considered of any use in the identification of an errant moving bicycle and/or it's rider. It's just unworkable. If such a device is desirable to government, it could be implemented by large, clearly readable font printed on a reflective waistcoat. But be warned. If you make such a thing mandatory for cyclists, the smug, self-satisfied grins on the bike hating imbeciles of the world would only last as long as it took for that same government to realise that, with a bit of "mission creep", it could be extended to everyone, all of the time. In your car? Reflective vest. On foot? Reflective vest. At the beach? No excuse, sonny-Jim, wear your reflective serial numbered waistcoat or it's a £100 fine. And it would last no longer than the remainder of the parliament which introduced it, because the Monster Raving Loony Party could get elected if it were the only party campaigning to repeal it. And if so many drivers are "up in arms" about the "constant" surveillance of them by speed cameras, etc, then why are they so keen to INCREASE the sort of surveillance which they profess to detest? Sour grapes, no doubt, because something they're quite free to enjoy is free to those what enjoy it, but they don't want to join in.
TL;DR? People calling for registration plates on bicycles are idiots. So f
k 'em. Julian Scott said:
But, negative events are far far from the norm. I can't remember the last time I had bad/dangerous/inappropriate driving impact me when either riding solo or on a group ride. I get way way more issues from car drivers when driving than cycling - but granted I don't ride anywhere close to cities/build-up areas.
The odd marginally close pass, perhaps the odd oncoming overtake when not leaving quote as such space as ideal, but not enough to warrant getting irate about.
From my experience, the worst of both cyclist and drivers are those sat ranting on a keyboard, not actually out on the roads.
My experience too. The odd marginally close pass, perhaps the odd oncoming overtake when not leaving quote as such space as ideal, but not enough to warrant getting irate about.
From my experience, the worst of both cyclist and drivers are those sat ranting on a keyboard, not actually out on the roads.
I can only assume I am very lucky to be able to ride from semi-rural to the Cotswolds in a couple of miles as I very, very rarely have issues.
3 hours last night - no close passes, no abuse, vast majority of oncoming traffic dipped their lights - and that is the norm for me.
mooseracer said:
My experience too.
I can only assume I am very lucky to be able to ride from semi-rural to the Cotswolds in a couple of miles as I very, very rarely have issues.
3 hours last night - no close passes, no abuse, vast majority of oncoming traffic dipped their lights - and that is the norm for me.
I can only assume I am very lucky to be able to ride from semi-rural to the Cotswolds in a couple of miles as I very, very rarely have issues.
3 hours last night - no close passes, no abuse, vast majority of oncoming traffic dipped their lights - and that is the norm for me.
Once I’m in the countryside it’s generally fine for me too. Getting there doesn’t take long but every week there will be a car doing something daft - yesterday a driver did a u-turn (having looked right at me) and came within 10cm or so.
On Tuesday a driver in the opposite lane swung into the lane I was in and parked in front of me forcing me to brake. He just stared at me. Completely traffic-free road otherwise and no parking! He will have been an obstacle for cars to pass after me no doubt and if I had been in my car he would not have done that - just total entitlement that he couldn’t care less about cyclists.
Anyway, yes, mostly it’s fine but this thread is about highlighting when it isn’t and addressing the two-abreast issue some motorists have.
I’m no weekend social rider who barely gets out and then rants; I do circa 15-20k km per year, race road and MTB and have won many of them over the years and up until my move back to the UK this year (temporarily) was training with Pro’s regularly. I know my way around a bicycle in other words and have been driving too for over 30 years. I am very familiar with both sides.
As I mentioned previously though, the UK - well, Yorkshire - hasn’t been as bad as I was told it might be so that’s nice. I do only leave at 9:30am though to avoid the rush hours so that helps.
YorkshireStu said:
Once I’m in the countryside it’s generally fine for me too. Getting there doesn’t take long but every week there will be a car doing something daft - yesterday a driver did a u-turn (having looked right at me) and came within 10cm or so.
On Tuesday a driver in the opposite lane swung into the lane I was in and parked in front of me forcing me to brake. He just stared at me. Completely traffic-free road otherwise and no parking! He will have been an obstacle for cars to pass after me no doubt and if I had been in my car he would not have done that - just total entitlement that he couldn’t care less about cyclists.
Anyway, yes, mostly it’s fine but this thread is about highlighting when it isn’t and addressing the two-abreast issue some motorists have.
I’m no weekend social rider who barely gets out and then rants; I do circa 15-20k km per year, race road and MTB and have won many of them over the years and up until my move back to the UK this year (temporarily) was training with Pro’s regularly. I know my way around a bicycle in other words and have been driving too for over 30 years. I am very familiar with both sides.
As I mentioned previously though, the UK - well, Yorkshire - hasn’t been as bad as I was told it might be so that’s nice. I do only leave at 9:30am though to avoid the rush hours so that helps.
I'm in rural Lincolnshire, and drivers are generally reasonable in attitude, though you do get the occasional throbber, and a small percentage of clueless/inattentive drivers. On Tuesday a driver in the opposite lane swung into the lane I was in and parked in front of me forcing me to brake. He just stared at me. Completely traffic-free road otherwise and no parking! He will have been an obstacle for cars to pass after me no doubt and if I had been in my car he would not have done that - just total entitlement that he couldn’t care less about cyclists.
Anyway, yes, mostly it’s fine but this thread is about highlighting when it isn’t and addressing the two-abreast issue some motorists have.
I’m no weekend social rider who barely gets out and then rants; I do circa 15-20k km per year, race road and MTB and have won many of them over the years and up until my move back to the UK this year (temporarily) was training with Pro’s regularly. I know my way around a bicycle in other words and have been driving too for over 30 years. I am very familiar with both sides.
As I mentioned previously though, the UK - well, Yorkshire - hasn’t been as bad as I was told it might be so that’s nice. I do only leave at 9:30am though to avoid the rush hours so that helps.
I'm a bus driver so understand all too well the frustrations of being held up by a slower moving vehicle that you cannot easily overtake. I have my bus driver hat on when cycling, and my cycling helmet on when driving my bus - I'll wave people past me when I can see it's safe, but equally I'll take primary to discourage a pass when I can see it's clearly not; equally I'll hold back a fair distance in the bus, only passing when I can see it's clear and safe to do so without cutting back in. Often this means holding back for a much longer time than a car would have to due to the size and (lack of) speed. I'll also endeavour to make my presence known to a cyclist by tapping the air brake, this is after a fellow driver had a cyclist (wearing earphones) turn right onto the opposing footpath without looking, as he was passing, killing him instantly.
A little bit of consideration and understanding from both sides goes a long way, unfortunately ego and entitlement often win out, leading to confrontation and dangerous manoeuvres.
My wife was going through some temp traffic lights yesterday when a cyclist came through the lights going the other way. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, the lights may have been playing up at his end. Either way, it was very much a single track with nowhere for my wife to go. However, in front of my wife was a truck, also heading towards the cyclist, who had even less room for manoeuvre. The cyclist refused point blank to move onto the path on his side of the road (let alone the cycle path the other side of the bollards), so the truck had to knock some bollards over to allow the cyclist to get past. My wife moved over as far as she could, but didn't want to hit the bollards. This wasn't enough for the cyclist who screamed abuse at my wife and then punched the side of the car, hopefully hurting his hand quite badly. Luckily, this was caught on dash cam, which is being forwarded to the Police, although I doubt very much anything will come of it.
RoadToad84 said:
I'm in rural Lincolnshire, and drivers are generally reasonable in attitude, though you do get the occasional throbber, and a small percentage of clueless/inattentive drivers.
I'm a bus driver so understand all too well the frustrations of being held up by a slower moving vehicle that you cannot easily overtake. I have my bus driver hat on when cycling, and my cycling helmet on when driving my bus - I'll wave people past me when I can see it's safe, but equally I'll take primary to discourage a pass when I can see it's clearly not; equally I'll hold back a fair distance in the bus, only passing when I can see it's clear and safe to do so without cutting back in. Often this means holding back for a much longer time than a car would have to due to the size and (lack of) speed. I'll also endeavour to make my presence known to a cyclist by tapping the air brake, this is after a fellow driver had a cyclist (wearing earphones) turn right onto the opposing footpath without looking, as he was passing, killing him instantly.
A little bit of consideration and understanding from both sides goes a long way, unfortunately ego and entitlement often win out, leading to confrontation and dangerous manoeuvres.
I think the cyclists responding in this thread have demonstrated that they are courteous and will assist with overtakes etc. I'm a bus driver so understand all too well the frustrations of being held up by a slower moving vehicle that you cannot easily overtake. I have my bus driver hat on when cycling, and my cycling helmet on when driving my bus - I'll wave people past me when I can see it's safe, but equally I'll take primary to discourage a pass when I can see it's clearly not; equally I'll hold back a fair distance in the bus, only passing when I can see it's clear and safe to do so without cutting back in. Often this means holding back for a much longer time than a car would have to due to the size and (lack of) speed. I'll also endeavour to make my presence known to a cyclist by tapping the air brake, this is after a fellow driver had a cyclist (wearing earphones) turn right onto the opposing footpath without looking, as he was passing, killing him instantly.
A little bit of consideration and understanding from both sides goes a long way, unfortunately ego and entitlement often win out, leading to confrontation and dangerous manoeuvres.
Funnily enough, one of the local bus drivers on my route out to the countryside and I have started waving to each other and have an understanding - we have done similar as you have described in recent months, making sure we don't cause each other any undue hassle.
Earphones and cycling aren't for me since you mention them. I need to be able to have all my senses fully functioning so that I am properly aware at all times. I've never tried wearing them cycling and never will.
Some cyclists get themselves into trouble by not taking care that drivers have seen them and just merrily go about their journey trusting they will always be seen. This is not the case at all. Drivers are focussed upon looking for other drivers and when they go into 'autopilot' mode themselves, their vision can miss cyclists.
Two years ago I had a woman drive into me - fortunately only glancing, I never fell off etc - on a small roundabout. She claimed not to have seen me at all, only the car behind me. I was on a bright red Trek Madone, lights on (bright sunshine day, no clouds) and wearing a bright orange jersey! She was looking for cars...not me. It happens. So as cyclists, we do need to make sure that drivers have clocked us before we make certain manoeuvres.
cerb4.5lee said:
I remember doing my Cycling Proficiency Test back in the 1970's at first(primary) school, do they still do anything like that now?
I guess if they still do now...they'd just tell everyone to ride 2 abreast everywhere!
Regularly see a group of kids, all in hi-viz with two Instructors, cycling around the neighbourhood so yeah, cycling education does happen. I guess if they still do now...they'd just tell everyone to ride 2 abreast everywhere!
Yes, they will be made aware of when cycling 2 abreast is acceptable practice. British Cycling offer this education as do all cycling Clubs up and down the country.
Red9zero said:
My wife was going through some temp traffic lights yesterday when a cyclist came through the lights going the other way. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, the lights may have been playing up at his end. Either way, it was very much a single track with nowhere for my wife to go. However, in front of my wife was a truck, also heading towards the cyclist, who had even less room for manoeuvre. The cyclist refused point blank to move onto the path on his side of the road (let alone the cycle path the other side of the bollards), so the truck had to knock some bollards over to allow the cyclist to get past. My wife moved over as far as she could, but didn't want to hit the bollards. This wasn't enough for the cyclist who screamed abuse at my wife and then punched the side of the car, hopefully hurting his hand quite badly. Luckily, this was caught on dash cam, which is being forwarded to the Police, although I doubt very much anything will come of it.
If the cyclist had not run red but caught them just before they did he has right of way. You should know this. It depends upon how far he has to go - if it is a long stretch, it is not unlikely for the lights to have turned green at the other end before he is there. I've had this happen to me before on a particularly long stretch. Personally, I'd move inside the bollard area if it was safe for a cyclist to do so and let the cars behind me carry on or use the cycle path to avoid the whole thing.
Strictly speaking, the truck and your wife had to wait until the cyclist was safely past you. Yes, if he ran red that's not on, but you'd have to prove that. Even so, regardless, the rule of hierarchy means that the onus is upon the driver of a vehicle to wait until the cyclist is past.
I'd suggest, given what you have written and not witnessing it myself, the cyclist was a knob for not going inside the bollards or using a nearby cycle path but the truck driver was a knob for proceeding without waiting for the cyclist - assuming a straight road where he saw the cyclist before proceeding.
In the eyes of the Law though, the cyclist may not have done anything wrong, technically, whereas the truck driver should not have proceeded.
YorkshireStu said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I remember doing my Cycling Proficiency Test back in the 1970's at first(primary) school, do they still do anything like that now?
I guess if they still do now...they'd just tell everyone to ride 2 abreast everywhere!
Regularly see a group of kids, all in hi-viz with two Instructors, cycling around the neighbourhood so yeah, cycling education does happen. I guess if they still do now...they'd just tell everyone to ride 2 abreast everywhere!
Yes, they will be made aware of when cycling 2 abreast is acceptable practice. British Cycling offer this education as do all cycling Clubs up and down the country.
I remember really enjoying doing mine at the time for sure.
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