Which is the best Type R?
Discussion
_Lee_ said:
Which car do you think is more exploitable on a average rough b road?
ITR, without a shadow of doubt:-- Better secondary ride
- More adjustable chassis
- LSD to quell any understeer if you're going THAT quickly or driving THAT ham-fistedly
- Miles more steering feel to allow you to exploit the front-end to the limit in confidence.
The only area where the CTR would have the edge is mid-range flexibility.
Ironically (and I think this shows how little you understand cars, sorry Lee) the CTR claws most of the deficit back on-track, where the secondary ride issue isn't relevant, where the run-off permits you to push harder than on-the-road, and to drive around the muffled messages, and where the additional tyre 'footprint' is most valuable.
Lee - it helps on here if you DO listen to people who have more experience than you. Dan (10p) has owned and driven both for extended periods of time, I'd respect his opinion on this above my own (I've only test-driven both pre- and post-facelift EP3R's, plus cooking EP's and a whole suite of other performance fwd cars...). You seem to be arguing just because you don't like someone else disagreeing with you...and it's starting to get childish! Just a thought...
Put simply, you dont need a racetrack to appreciate that the DC2 is a nicer car to drive than an EP3. If that wasnt the case, then I may well be driving around in an EP3 now... well actually, probably not since i prefer the look of the DC2 and it was cheaper!
Agree with everything Havoc says anyway. I cant imagine the EP3 being any slower on track than the DC2, and maybe not even on the road to be honest, but that just isn't what its about at all. Its how the car makes you feel when your driving it, and how the car itself feels, and on both counts, the ITR is simply a more "special" car. A genuine cult car. The CTR, while being a capable machine, is simply a sanatised modern interpretation IMO. Thats not neccesarily a criticism of the CTR per se, but of many (most) modern cars.
Agree with everything Havoc says anyway. I cant imagine the EP3 being any slower on track than the DC2, and maybe not even on the road to be honest, but that just isn't what its about at all. Its how the car makes you feel when your driving it, and how the car itself feels, and on both counts, the ITR is simply a more "special" car. A genuine cult car. The CTR, while being a capable machine, is simply a sanatised modern interpretation IMO. Thats not neccesarily a criticism of the CTR per se, but of many (most) modern cars.
_Lee_ said:
10 Pence Short said:
_Lee_ said:
It's easy to all jump on the band wagon when evo is trying to present the car as iconic but if you have driven both cars back to back on british roads, you will see the point I was trying to make and that is, there is not a huge amount of difference in the driving experience.
Take it from someone who's owned both cars back to back for thousands of miles- there is a huge amount of difference in the driving experience. Sorry, but your opinion is shared by a number no greater than 1. You.No need to apologize and there are plenty of people who share my opinion outside in the real world.
On the track the ITR may be able to exploit it's fantastic chassis and go places where the CTR can't but out on normal roads the difference isn't the gulf you would like us to believe.
Which car do you think is more exploitable on a average rough b road?
First, you are of the opinion there is little difference in the driving experience. I'm not going to repeat what's already been said by owners of both- there is a gulf of difference between the driving experiences both cars offer. They are very different to drive, the EP3 is very much a watered down version of the DC2 experience. As I have said, you might not agree, but you're in a very small minority.
Secondly, you've now moved the goalposts to include "exploitability". I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that? If you're talking about the ability to use the bumpy British B road that's often talked about, then the Integra is the car you can 'exploit' the most in terms of the 'driving experience'. The suspension copes better on pitted, bumpy roads an the limited slip differential gives better traction, especially on poor surfaces.
On smooth tarmac the Civic loses out less because the deficits in its suspensin and traction don't count for as much.
What perplexes me is the need to resort to the ungainly and barely tangible "which is faster" question. To answer it, with a competant and committed driver, there's sod all in it between the two. Both have different strengths and weaknesses. The differences are in how the cars deliver the driving experience and the compromises they made to do it.
Whilst you're thinking about that, consider that the DC2 was in the showrooms 6 years or so before the EP3 was introduced. That's 6 years of engine, chassis, body rigidity, steering, tyre and braking technology the Integra sits behind the EP3. Yet the Integra loses nothing on speed and has everything in terms of 'driving experience'.
That tells you something.
_Lee_ said:
On the track the ITR may be able to exploit it's fantastic chassis and go places where the CTR can't but out on normal roads the difference isn't the gulf you would like us to believe.
The difference may be minimal, but if there *IS* a minimal improvement, it would make it 'better', No?I've not driven either. I'm into RWD for my fun cars.
The DC2 & DC5 I'd like to have a play in .. the Civics do nothing for me.
Bibbs said:
_Lee_ said:
On the track the ITR may be able to exploit it's fantastic chassis and go places where the CTR can't but out on normal roads the difference isn't the gulf you would like us to believe.
The difference may be minimal, but if there *IS* a minimal improvement, it would make it 'better', No?[quote]
Not if that minimal improvement (which no one has claimed there is that I can tell) is at the detriment of driver involvement and dare I say it, enjoyment?
I've driven a CTR and owned the DC2 for nearly four years now and whilst the CTR appears easier to live with on a day to day basis I would never swap the DC2 in for one, quite frankly it bored me to much as a drive to even contemplate it. Saying that, I've more or less crossed the S2000 of my list as the engine just didn't quite gel for me...
EvoBarry said:
Saying that, I've more or less crossed the S2000 of my list as the engine just didn't quite gel for me...
Sound aside, it's about the one area (excl rwd and convertible) where the S2000 trumps the ITR, IMHO. Much torquier, much easier to drive quickly without redlining all the time. But it needs a better airbox...EvoBarry said:
Not if that minimal improvement (which no one has claimed there is that I can tell) is at the detriment of driver involvement and dare I say it, enjoyment?
I've driven a CTR and owned the DC2 for nearly four years now and whilst the CTR appears easier to live with on a day to day basis I would never swap the DC2 in for one, quite frankly it bored me to much as a drive to even contemplate it. Saying that, I've more or less crossed the S2000 of my list as the engine just didn't quite gel for me...
I was actually saying the DC2 is the better I've driven a CTR and owned the DC2 for nearly four years now and whilst the CTR appears easier to live with on a day to day basis I would never swap the DC2 in for one, quite frankly it bored me to much as a drive to even contemplate it. Saying that, I've more or less crossed the S2000 of my list as the engine just didn't quite gel for me...
The "breadvan" Civic always seemed soft to me, and the new UK one has nothing Type-R about it other than a badge. The JDM one looks lush though.
But then the UK ones are made in Swindon, and Honda UK would rather sell a local product.
Ok, thanks for all your commemts guys! Although it has gone slightly off topic! 
Didn't realise the type r subject sparked off such debate!
Only one person has mentioned the Ek9, but from most of the comments i have heard, it sounds abit too raw for everyday use!
But it doesnt matter anyway! Because i have just bought a stunning Integra type r DC2! Yess! Sadly i have only driven it once and now have to wait a week until i can insure it!
Just have to stare at it through the window i guess!
Didn't realise the type r subject sparked off such debate! Only one person has mentioned the Ek9, but from most of the comments i have heard, it sounds abit too raw for everyday use!
But it doesnt matter anyway! Because i have just bought a stunning Integra type r DC2! Yess! Sadly i have only driven it once and now have to wait a week until i can insure it!
Just have to stare at it through the window i guess!
havoc said:
_Lee_ said:
Which car do you think is more exploitable on a average rough b road?
ITR, without a shadow of doubt:-- Better secondary ride
- More adjustable chassis
- LSD to quell any understeer if you're going THAT quickly or driving THAT ham-fistedly
- Miles more steering feel to allow you to exploit the front-end to the limit in confidence.
The only area where the CTR would have the edge is mid-range flexibility.
Ironically (and I think this shows how little you understand cars, sorry Lee) the CTR claws most of the deficit back on-track, where the secondary ride issue isn't relevant, where the run-off permits you to push harder than on-the-road, and to drive around the muffled messages, and where the additional tyre 'footprint' is most valuable.
Lee - it helps on here if you DO listen to people who have more experience than you. Dan (10p) has owned and driven both for extended periods of time, I'd respect his opinion on this above my own (I've only test-driven both pre- and post-facelift EP3R's, plus cooking EP's and a whole suite of other performance fwd cars...). You seem to be arguing just because you don't like someone else disagreeing with you...and it's starting to get childish! Just a thought...
10p I not sure what you're on about, with moving the goalposts. Maybe I should have made it clear I was asking a question rather than making a statement.
I have driven both cars back to back and simply don't agree and will probably continue to disagree.
Anyhow, I'm going to dip out of this thread now and unless any other comments are directed my way, I will stay out of this thread.
the other day _Lee_ said:
10 Pence Short said:
_Lee_ said:
there is not a huge amount of difference in the driving experience.
Take it from someone who's owned both cars back to back for thousands of miles- there is a huge amount of difference in the driving experience. Sorry, but your opinion is shared by a number no greater than 1. You.No need to apologize and there are plenty of people who share my opinion outside in the real world.
...but out on normal roads the difference isn't the gulf you would like us to believe.
YES, cars are subjective things, but when majority opinion swings in a certain direction you've either got to be foolish, brave, or extremely sure of yourself to swing against it. Here's a clue - you're not #3!
Here's clue #2 - ITR residuals are mullering CTR residuals, with some ITR's worth more than substantially younger CTRs. That 'real-world' enough for you???
havoc said:
the other day _Lee_ said:
10 Pence Short said:
_Lee_ said:
there is not a huge amount of difference in the driving experience.
Take it from someone who's owned both cars back to back for thousands of miles- there is a huge amount of difference in the driving experience. Sorry, but your opinion is shared by a number no greater than 1. You.No need to apologize and there are plenty of people who share my opinion outside in the real world.
...but out on normal roads the difference isn't the gulf you would like us to believe.
YES, cars are subjective things, but when majority opinion swings in a certain direction you've either got to be foolish, brave, or extremely sure of yourself to swing against it. Here's a clue - you're not #3!
Here's clue #2 - ITR residuals are mullering CTR residuals, with some ITR's worth more than substantially younger CTRs. That 'real-world' enough for you???
Three and a bit years ago I could have bought my 23 month old, fully maintained, owned from new CTR from my company for about £7k. Instead, I went out and spent £11k on a mint-as-possible DC2.
I was happy spending an extra £4k on the older car because, when it came to it, the Integra was so much better at fulfilling the role of a drivers car.
havoc said:
the other day _Lee_ said:
10 Pence Short said:
_Lee_ said:
there is not a huge amount of difference in the driving experience.
Take it from someone who's owned both cars back to back for thousands of miles- there is a huge amount of difference in the driving experience. Sorry, but your opinion is shared by a number no greater than 1. You.No need to apologize and there are plenty of people who share my opinion outside in the real world.
...but out on normal roads the difference isn't the gulf you would like us to believe.
YES, cars are subjective things, but when majority opinion swings in a certain direction you've either got to be foolish, brave, or extremely sure of yourself to swing against it. Here's a clue - you're not #3!
Here's clue #2 - ITR residuals are mullering CTR residuals, with some ITR's worth more than substantially younger CTRs. That 'real-world' enough for you???
Who was acting up? I wasn't the one name calling, that childish, learn the difference please. Your actions are causing you to look hypocritical, name calling and then following it up by desperately trying to take the high ground.
As for the opinion thing, you don't need to be any of the characteristics above to disagree with some others, it's called being an individual and having a strong enough centre to make up your own mind. Ego may lead you to believe someone is foolish/brave/sure of themselves to choose a different route than the one you have taken, however this isn't the case necessarily, it's just how you interpret the world.
Clue 2? Do you really think you can compare a mass produced main stream car with a very low production one? The point is a non-starter, it's like comparing a Mondeo with a GT. The market is awash with CTR's just like it is with any other mass produced hot hatch, now what do you think that does to residuals against a good car that is low production?
_Lee_ said:
Clue 2? Do you really think you can compare a mass produced main stream car with a very low production one? The point is a non-starter, it's like comparing a Mondeo with a GT. The market is awash with CTR's just like it is with any other mass produced hot hatch, now what do you think that does to residuals against a good car that is low production?
You're digging that hole even deeper, aren't you?!? The DC2-era Integra was sold as a run-of-the-mill saloon and coupe, based off the EG (I think) Civic floorpan. A lot of them were sold in Japan, Australasia, and America.
So it's got exactly the same humble beginnings as the EP3-R. So it's probably more like comparing say an Octavia vRS with a Leon Cupra R!
When are you going to stop arguing with people who know a lot more about Honda and Hondas than you do? Really, because you're just getting tiresome now.
I have owned a EK9, driven extensivly DC2, DC5, EP3, New CTR on and off track, a short drive in a ATR and driven 2 variants of the NSX earler version and Newer.
My list whilst a couple of non Type R's sort of reflects the reason why I no longer own a Type R.
1. DC2
2. EK9
3. NSX
4. DC5
5. EP3
6. S2000
7. New CTR FD? (Sorry out of touch these days :P )
8. ATR
My reasons for the DC2 pipping the EK9 is simply overall it is easier to drive. The engine is less manic making it easier to make progress than the EK9, I have always been critical of the steering not helped by an oversized steering wheel. The EK9 is floored by the chassis which on the limit just is not as confidence inspiring as the DC2 which is spot on.
I havent driven an NSX R so could comment but driven a couple of NSX's which are superb and surprisingly nimble.
The EP3 as already mentioned was a compromise in every way, said it before, but Honda could build cars like they do marketing they would once again be a driving force in the market place.
Might try the new 4 door one as a family car but doubt it will relight my Type R fire
My list whilst a couple of non Type R's sort of reflects the reason why I no longer own a Type R.
1. DC2
2. EK9
3. NSX
4. DC5
5. EP3
6. S2000
7. New CTR FD? (Sorry out of touch these days :P )
8. ATR
My reasons for the DC2 pipping the EK9 is simply overall it is easier to drive. The engine is less manic making it easier to make progress than the EK9, I have always been critical of the steering not helped by an oversized steering wheel. The EK9 is floored by the chassis which on the limit just is not as confidence inspiring as the DC2 which is spot on.
I havent driven an NSX R so could comment but driven a couple of NSX's which are superb and surprisingly nimble.
The EP3 as already mentioned was a compromise in every way, said it before, but Honda could build cars like they do marketing they would once again be a driving force in the market place.
Might try the new 4 door one as a family car but doubt it will relight my Type R fire
Edited by VTECMatt on Saturday 26th April 20:18
I'd put the S2000 both above the DC5 and below the EP3...completely depending on the geometry set-up of the individual car. It really does make that much difference, both to balance, to 'snappiness' (or not), and to feedback, to a degree.
Not driven all of them to comment on the rest of your list (NSX and latest CTRs missing).
Not driven all of them to comment on the rest of your list (NSX and latest CTRs missing).
Interesting list, and I understand that is how you see it and you've got some good points. Interesting you didn't pick up on the similarities though between the ITR and ATR - one is at the top, the other at the bottom!
Both braced, striped out, all sound proofing removed, LSD and old skool VTEC lump & manufactured in small numbers. The drive is very similar.
For me the FD2 is top of the class, it has the qualities of the original Type Rs bonded (literally!) with modern day technology.
Both braced, striped out, all sound proofing removed, LSD and old skool VTEC lump & manufactured in small numbers. The drive is very similar.
For me the FD2 is top of the class, it has the qualities of the original Type Rs bonded (literally!) with modern day technology.
Edited by giger on Sunday 27th April 19:33
Hi folks, was sufing around the web for stuff, 'accidentally' came across this thread and stangely read from the 1st page all the way to the last post...
yes its about a year outdated i know.. but cant help myself, so went to register to put in my 2cents - always interesting to see what feedback will arise...
anyway, i own/drive the JDM FL EP3, and have driven an EUDM preFL EP3, and have a mate who used to have a 2000 spec JDM DC2, which I drove a number of times, enough to remember how it felt (but never on the track). Another mate has a FL JDM DC5r, but I have only driven it on the track once.
To answer the thread topic, I think the na2r, although I have never driven one. I have a best motoring vid that discusses it in depth though, and while i agree that BM is sometimes BS cos they always push the new models, u have to agree that 1270kg and 280ps in a MR format with that amount of racing technology is really no joke!
will try not to make this too long a post, so to answer about the knock on the ep3 steering? The one I have has great steering, pretty close to the DC2, but yes still short by a little. I do think that that the front MP setup improves the feel a little, although the DW is likely to have better geometry.
The EUDM preFL EP3 i tested (2 times) had bad steering feel, period! Too much assistance, no feedback... so yes, i agree with all the knocks on ep3 steering in that sense. Anyone care to comment on a EUDM FL ep3? Never had the chance to see one here in Singapore, let alone drive one. But I think the FL and pre-FL versions feel quite different on the limit, emphasis on 'think' please...
The JDM dc2 is the best, of course, in terms of edginess and rawness. The JDM FL EP3 is about 80% of it, the 20% going to better NVH, being almost 200kg heavier, and the 'smoother' nature of the K20A over the B18C. On the track, both cars are neck to neck, will all depend on the driver.
When my EP3 shocks had gone, I put on a set of Mugen matched shocks and springs, they ARE great, alhtough overpriced. Yes, there are better ones with adjustability features, but I'm no test driver, so rely on the Mugen settings, drop them in and hit the tracks! The stock suspy on the car was good, its now very good, borderline great...
JDM EP3 vs DC5? Just 10kg and 5ps apart - yes its that close. Driving enjoyment, the dc2 wins, not by a great deal, but significant enough. Track times? All 3 cars neck-to-neck, but if they are stripped out and weight becomes less of a factor, and which the right chassis/undercarriage modifications and engine tweaking (not the absurd FI types), the newer cars should edge out the DC2.
Fast road? Although I have only driven the dc2 on 'sprited road drive', i dun really bother since we're not supposed to be wringing it on public roads
yes its about a year outdated i know.. but cant help myself, so went to register to put in my 2cents - always interesting to see what feedback will arise...
anyway, i own/drive the JDM FL EP3, and have driven an EUDM preFL EP3, and have a mate who used to have a 2000 spec JDM DC2, which I drove a number of times, enough to remember how it felt (but never on the track). Another mate has a FL JDM DC5r, but I have only driven it on the track once.
To answer the thread topic, I think the na2r, although I have never driven one. I have a best motoring vid that discusses it in depth though, and while i agree that BM is sometimes BS cos they always push the new models, u have to agree that 1270kg and 280ps in a MR format with that amount of racing technology is really no joke!
will try not to make this too long a post, so to answer about the knock on the ep3 steering? The one I have has great steering, pretty close to the DC2, but yes still short by a little. I do think that that the front MP setup improves the feel a little, although the DW is likely to have better geometry.
The EUDM preFL EP3 i tested (2 times) had bad steering feel, period! Too much assistance, no feedback... so yes, i agree with all the knocks on ep3 steering in that sense. Anyone care to comment on a EUDM FL ep3? Never had the chance to see one here in Singapore, let alone drive one. But I think the FL and pre-FL versions feel quite different on the limit, emphasis on 'think' please...
The JDM dc2 is the best, of course, in terms of edginess and rawness. The JDM FL EP3 is about 80% of it, the 20% going to better NVH, being almost 200kg heavier, and the 'smoother' nature of the K20A over the B18C. On the track, both cars are neck to neck, will all depend on the driver.
When my EP3 shocks had gone, I put on a set of Mugen matched shocks and springs, they ARE great, alhtough overpriced. Yes, there are better ones with adjustability features, but I'm no test driver, so rely on the Mugen settings, drop them in and hit the tracks! The stock suspy on the car was good, its now very good, borderline great...
JDM EP3 vs DC5? Just 10kg and 5ps apart - yes its that close. Driving enjoyment, the dc2 wins, not by a great deal, but significant enough. Track times? All 3 cars neck-to-neck, but if they are stripped out and weight becomes less of a factor, and which the right chassis/undercarriage modifications and engine tweaking (not the absurd FI types), the newer cars should edge out the DC2.
Fast road? Although I have only driven the dc2 on 'sprited road drive', i dun really bother since we're not supposed to be wringing it on public roads
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