Which is the best Type R?
Discussion
pbirkett said:
_Lee_ said:
The ep3 is a great car.
People just love to hark on about the DC2 like it's in a different league when in fact it isn't as much as a all-rounder as the ep3. If you drive the two cars back to back, they are very close in every area and there isn't a real distinction between the two. The ep3 has the better engine and the DC2 has better feel through the steering.
It's just talk for the sake of talk.
Fair enough, that is your opinion.People just love to hark on about the DC2 like it's in a different league when in fact it isn't as much as a all-rounder as the ep3. If you drive the two cars back to back, they are very close in every area and there isn't a real distinction between the two. The ep3 has the better engine and the DC2 has better feel through the steering.
It's just talk for the sake of talk.
I will try and offer my opinion as objectively as possible as someone who test drove both with a view to upgrade my clio 182, and ended up with a DC2.
When I drove the EP3 I felt that it was a competent hot hatch with a good engine and gearbox. The build quality was fine and it was more roomy and practical than the clio. However, the steering was IMO rather poor, it was responsive enough but lacked any real feel or feedback or resistance. Also, the chassis somehow didnt feel quite as playful as the clio. Overall, I didnt feel like it was an occasion to drive, it just felt like yet another hotted up hatchback, which is what it is.
When I drove the DC2, I was struck first by the looks of the things. It actually looks sporty and menacing, more so than the CTR... mine is a JDM 98-spec which for me looks even more aggressive than the UK one. Then, when I sat in it, it gives a real sports car driving position, unlike the CTR which like the clio was just another lofty, upright driving position derived from a hatchback. On the road, the steering was at least as good as the clio, much better than the CTR, and overall, sitting lower to the ground, and with the superior suspension and chassis that I felt the DC2 has, it felt like a real special occasion to drive. Also the LSD gave far more traction out of corners, and the car is really chuckable. Finally, the engine. The K20 is realise is technically, on paper, a better engine, but the B18C sounds much nicer to me and has a lot more character. Dont be fooled by the torque figures either, the DC2 is lighter and feels just as torquey at low revs.
On the other hand, the EP3 is much more practical, it can fit four passengers in comfort, and has a more usable boot - the DC2 has a big boot but has strut braces there too which hamper its usability a tad.
As a day to day prospect, the EP3 is every bit as good if not better as a DC2, but I feel from my experiences of both, only the most blinkered EP3 driver could feel that the EP3 matched the DC2 as a drivers car, because IMO, it simply doesnt.
Just my 2c
stewie732 said:
pbirkett said:
_Lee_ said:
The ep3 is a great car.
People just love to hark on about the DC2 like it's in a different league when in fact it isn't as much as a all-rounder as the ep3. If you drive the two cars back to back, they are very close in every area and there isn't a real distinction between the two. The ep3 has the better engine and the DC2 has better feel through the steering.
It's just talk for the sake of talk.
Fair enough, that is your opinion.People just love to hark on about the DC2 like it's in a different league when in fact it isn't as much as a all-rounder as the ep3. If you drive the two cars back to back, they are very close in every area and there isn't a real distinction between the two. The ep3 has the better engine and the DC2 has better feel through the steering.
It's just talk for the sake of talk.
I will try and offer my opinion as objectively as possible as someone who test drove both with a view to upgrade my clio 182, and ended up with a DC2.
When I drove the EP3 I felt that it was a competent hot hatch with a good engine and gearbox. The build quality was fine and it was more roomy and practical than the clio. However, the steering was IMO rather poor, it was responsive enough but lacked any real feel or feedback or resistance. Also, the chassis somehow didnt feel quite as playful as the clio. Overall, I didnt feel like it was an occasion to drive, it just felt like yet another hotted up hatchback, which is what it is.
When I drove the DC2, I was struck first by the looks of the things. It actually looks sporty and menacing, more so than the CTR... mine is a JDM 98-spec which for me looks even more aggressive than the UK one. Then, when I sat in it, it gives a real sports car driving position, unlike the CTR which like the clio was just another lofty, upright driving position derived from a hatchback. On the road, the steering was at least as good as the clio, much better than the CTR, and overall, sitting lower to the ground, and with the superior suspension and chassis that I felt the DC2 has, it felt like a real special occasion to drive. Also the LSD gave far more traction out of corners, and the car is really chuckable. Finally, the engine. The K20 is realise is technically, on paper, a better engine, but the B18C sounds much nicer to me and has a lot more character. Dont be fooled by the torque figures either, the DC2 is lighter and feels just as torquey at low revs.
On the other hand, the EP3 is much more practical, it can fit four passengers in comfort, and has a more usable boot - the DC2 has a big boot but has strut braces there too which hamper its usability a tad.
As a day to day prospect, the EP3 is every bit as good if not better as a DC2, but I feel from my experiences of both, only the most blinkered EP3 driver could feel that the EP3 matched the DC2 as a drivers car, because IMO, it simply doesnt.
Just my 2c
The ep3 is in a different league to the cheapo clio so we won't even go there.
As for the DC2, well it's a great car, we all know that but it depends which context we are looking at this in. The ep3 clearly has a superior engine but then things moved on since the DC2 and we could argue about the character all day long, the DC2 has a much more pronounced VTEC kick but the ep3 is more flexible and sounds nicer (imho).
The ep3 was never going to compete for tactility through the steering against the DC2 but then, thats fairly obvious. The ep3 has similar levels of out right grip though.
The difference as some would have you believe really isn't massive when the cars are driven back to back. The both have their plus and negative points.
I don't think anyone here would argue about the DC2, however some respect should be shown to the ep3 for what it is, a great car.
The best? NSX-R
Edited by _Lee_ on Wednesday 9th April 16:34
Get Karter said:
Is it worth trading in a 16,000 mile EP3 (with quaife diff fitted), for a 10 year old DC2?
(Market values are pretty similar just now afaik)
If you do any significant mileage at constant motorway speeds, I wouldn't bother. I ran an EP3 for 125,000 miles in 23 months and found it absolutely fine for long distance driving. I wouldn't want to do too long on the motorway in the DC2, though.(Market values are pretty similar just now afaik)
Apart from that, with the provisio that you could find a mint '99 or '00 example, I would go for it.
I bought a '99 model 3 years ago from a dealer, it only had 46,000 on the clock. As a drivers car and an event to use, it eclipsed the EP3 in every single way.
The differences aren't something you can easily replicate on paper; in the Integra there is an entirely mechanical feeling to every driving control, as if each part is an extension of a limb rather than a seperate mechanical component. At low revs it sounds gutterel and rough, like you're cruising down the pit lane waiting to enter the track and get the engine where it wants to be. Yet even at low revs, the car is incredibly responsive and pulls much better than the figures would ever suggest. The low, very low gearing means town centre speed limits are fine even in 4th.
When you drive the Civic, you're immediately brought back down to earth; this isn't the same thing as the Integra. As competent as it is, it just feels like a stiffer and faster version of a normal Civic. The engine is technically great, but where the B18 in the Integra always had an opinion about what it wanted you to do (normally involving adding 6000 revs), the K20 in the EP3 is just happy to go with the flow. It's like an innoffensive friend who never disagrees with you. When you do rev it, there is no real drama, just a raise of tone and pace, but no adrenaline as you would get from using the B series.
Much is said about the steering, and I'm afraid it's true- the electric system in the EP3 is direct, honest, nicely weighted and quick enough but it is also devoid of the feedback you get from the DC2 and very unreliable. In contrast the DC2 has all the positive points with none of the negative.
The Integra always felt like it was born with class and arrogantly carried it off at all times, whereas the EP3 feels like a lottery winner who still watches Corrie when nobody's looking.
_Lee_ said:
...however some respect should be shown to the ep3 for what it is, a great car.
Take the rose-tints off and drive some other cars, eh?The EP3 is NOT great. Never has been, never will be. It's GOOD, it's flexible, and it was well-pitched for what the UK market wanted...but it's not one of the great drivers' cars. The DC2 is, but is harder to live with (partially as a consequence). I drove both pretty-much back-to-back twice (an original and a facelift), and each time the EP3 left me a little underwhelmed thanks to the steering. Everything else worked (suspension didn't feel quite as keyed-in on a bumpy road, but a lot of modern cars are like that), but you felt one step removed...
...so all your talk of 'not a lot in it, pace-wise' misses the point of the DC2 by a country mile. MOST current-gen hot-hatches will be comfortably quicker point-to-point than a DC2. And much quicker than a 306GTi-6. But a lot of people don't give a hoot - both older cars are quite capable of covering ground at illegal (and beyond that, dangerous) speeds. Who needs the extra pace?
Greatness is in the involvement, the immersion of oneself in the driving experience, the tactility and adjustability of the car, the sound and feel of it as you push it to 10/10ths, the sheer lunatic grin that creeps across your face as once again the car exceeds your expectations. In all those areas the DC2 scores up there with the best that BMW and Porsche can offer, and bites hard on the coat-tails of Lotus! It represents the drivers' car triple-distilled and filtered until nothing extraneous remains, nothing to smother the messages and corrupt the experience.
havoc said:
_Lee_ said:
...however some respect should be shown to the ep3 for what it is, a great car.
Take the rose-tints off and drive some other cars, eh?The EP3 is NOT great. Never has been, never will be. It's GOOD, it's flexible, and it was well-pitched for what the UK market wanted...but it's not one of the great drivers' cars. The DC2 is, but is harder to live with (partially as a consequence). I drove both pretty-much back-to-back twice (an original and a facelift), and each time the EP3 left me a little underwhelmed thanks to the steering. Everything else worked (suspension didn't feel quite as keyed-in on a bumpy road, but a lot of modern cars are like that), but you felt one step removed...
...so all your talk of 'not a lot in it, pace-wise' misses the point of the DC2 by a country mile. MOST current-gen hot-hatches will be comfortably quicker point-to-point than a DC2. And much quicker than a 306GTi-6. But a lot of people don't give a hoot - both older cars are quite capable of covering ground at illegal (and beyond that, dangerous) speeds. Who needs the extra pace?
Greatness is in the involvement, the immersion of oneself in the driving experience, the tactility and adjustability of the car, the sound and feel of it as you push it to 10/10ths, the sheer lunatic grin that creeps across your face as once again the car exceeds your expectations. In all those areas the DC2 scores up there with the best that BMW and Porsche can offer, and bites hard on the coat-tails of Lotus! It represents the drivers' car triple-distilled and filtered until nothing extraneous remains, nothing to smother the messages and corrupt the experience.
havoc said:
The EP3 is NOT great. Never has been, never will be. It's GOOD, it's flexible, and it was well-pitched for what the UK market wanted...but it's not one of the great drivers' cars
I'm quoting that! So what registers as a great drivers car? Listen to what tiff thinks about the CTR in the fifth gear review. I'm of the same opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7taI8slbPq0
havoc said:
Greatness is in the involvement, the immersion of oneself in the driving experience, the tactility and adjustability of the car, the sound and feel of it as you push it to 10/10ths, the sheer lunatic grin that creeps across your face as once again the car exceeds your expectations. In all those areas the DC2 scores up there with the best that BMW and Porsche can offer, and bites hard on the coat-tails of Lotus
Who's rose tinted glasses are you wearing? Scores up there with the best BMW & Porsche can offer? Wake up. Have you heard of the CSL or GT3?Ludicrous.
havoc said:
Lee,
You're in a minority here. Does that not give you some clue?
As for your last comment re: BMW and Porsche, please point out where those particular cars came in Evo's all-time Top-100!
I'm in the minority? I think you are misguided.You're in a minority here. Does that not give you some clue?
As for your last comment re: BMW and Porsche, please point out where those particular cars came in Evo's all-time Top-100!
So because Evo voted a certain way it makes it truth? Well in that case I will cite the general motoring press who widely called the CTR as the best hot hatches around for a long time and a great drivers car.
See here; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7taI8slbPq0
Tiff's view of the CTR, I can keep going with more reviews if you would like?
People who say its not a drivers car are really the clueless ones.
So now we're talking about "drivers cars" - in which case its pretty much accepted that the DC2 beats the CTR hands down, whether you believe the press here or anywhere else. Yes the EP3 is a better day to day proposition, but thats the whole point, Honda wanted it to be to appeal to a wider audience, which they achieved. To do so they have to make it more usable and less mechanical. To appeal to the masses. Just look at the awful UK CTR we have now, its a lovely car but I wouldn't even be tempted to buy one at half the price (especially when Honda have made the JDM Civic so much better...).
That the "better engined" (wtf?) Civic can't beat its older (smaller engined) brother on a track or on road speaks wonders too imo.
I'm fairly broad minded about cars but as Havoc has repeatedly, and eloquently, put the DC2 IS something special, you either get that or you don't....
But the NSX-R is still the best TypeR.
That the "better engined" (wtf?) Civic can't beat its older (smaller engined) brother on a track or on road speaks wonders too imo.
I'm fairly broad minded about cars but as Havoc has repeatedly, and eloquently, put the DC2 IS something special, you either get that or you don't....
But the NSX-R is still the best TypeR.
As Evo said "its as sweet and focused in its own right as any Porsche RS".
Believe me I WAS sceptical until I tried one, but believe me it really does work. It has that rawness and sense of occasion that pretty much every modern rival since lacks, and for me it is that which makes it so good. Personally I am not going to enter an argument about whether the EP3 is a good car. Until I got to drive one, it was always a car I was curious about, and had it been better to drive than the clio 182 I had at the time, I might have ended up with one, but contrary to the dismissive claim that its in a different league to a cheapy clio, think again.
I actually felt the clio was a better drivers car
Even the clio couldnt compete with the teg though, as again the clio has a lofty driving position, horrid steering wheel and gearknob, not very supportive seats, a blaring, uncharasmatic engine note, a gearbox which pales into inferiority compared to the teg (and CTR), and was, in my opinion, somewhat overtyred, i would have actually liked it to have less grip. My initial thought when trying the teg was that it actually had LESS ultimate grip and tenacity than the clio, but it is so much more playful and controllable than the clio (and fun). Compared to the CTR the clio was just as fast (at any speed that really matters in the real world), and has a very agile responsive steering and chassis. It feels light and small. Civic a better all round car? Yes, but again as a drivers car, I felt the civic was no better, and certainly not enough to justify the thousands of pounds I would need to change.
To dismiss the teg because it is old and is no faster than a CTR is missing the point entirely, it is raw, focused and has the soul of a sports car. It is so good, that I could not afford to upgrade because the price of the upgrade would cost more money than i have at my disposal.
Lee, enjoy your CTR mate, it is a good car, but the teg is a different animal. If you ever get to try one, keep an open mind because if you do I believe you would be impressed.
Believe me I WAS sceptical until I tried one, but believe me it really does work. It has that rawness and sense of occasion that pretty much every modern rival since lacks, and for me it is that which makes it so good. Personally I am not going to enter an argument about whether the EP3 is a good car. Until I got to drive one, it was always a car I was curious about, and had it been better to drive than the clio 182 I had at the time, I might have ended up with one, but contrary to the dismissive claim that its in a different league to a cheapy clio, think again.
I actually felt the clio was a better drivers car
Even the clio couldnt compete with the teg though, as again the clio has a lofty driving position, horrid steering wheel and gearknob, not very supportive seats, a blaring, uncharasmatic engine note, a gearbox which pales into inferiority compared to the teg (and CTR), and was, in my opinion, somewhat overtyred, i would have actually liked it to have less grip. My initial thought when trying the teg was that it actually had LESS ultimate grip and tenacity than the clio, but it is so much more playful and controllable than the clio (and fun). Compared to the CTR the clio was just as fast (at any speed that really matters in the real world), and has a very agile responsive steering and chassis. It feels light and small. Civic a better all round car? Yes, but again as a drivers car, I felt the civic was no better, and certainly not enough to justify the thousands of pounds I would need to change.To dismiss the teg because it is old and is no faster than a CTR is missing the point entirely, it is raw, focused and has the soul of a sports car. It is so good, that I could not afford to upgrade because the price of the upgrade would cost more money than i have at my disposal.
Lee, enjoy your CTR mate, it is a good car, but the teg is a different animal. If you ever get to try one, keep an open mind because if you do I believe you would be impressed.
Edited by pbirkett on Thursday 10th April 08:33
MrFlibbles said:
I've never driven a 'teg - I'd love to see what all the fuss is about!
Mate, Im new to the party, only picked up my 98 Uk one a week ago.They speak the truth.
The two things that sum the car up for me (so far !) are....
1.The sense of occasion...It makes me grin just thinking about having to go anywhere in it.
2.Playful. It just feels like the damn thing wants to play...all the time.
Im already starting to fall for this car, and Ive not been on a proper hoon yet, or a trackday, both of which are going to feature heavily in this cars near future.
Buy one, you WILL NOT be disappointed.
_Lee_ said:
havoc said:
_Lee_ said:
...however some respect should be shown to the ep3 for what it is, a great car.
Take the rose-tints off and drive some other cars, eh?The EP3 is NOT great. Never has been, never will be. It's GOOD, it's flexible, and it was well-pitched for what the UK market wanted...but it's not one of the great drivers' cars. The DC2 is, but is harder to live with (partially as a consequence). I drove both pretty-much back-to-back twice (an original and a facelift), and each time the EP3 left me a little underwhelmed thanks to the steering. Everything else worked (suspension didn't feel quite as keyed-in on a bumpy road, but a lot of modern cars are like that), but you felt one step removed...
...so all your talk of 'not a lot in it, pace-wise' misses the point of the DC2 by a country mile. MOST current-gen hot-hatches will be comfortably quicker point-to-point than a DC2. And much quicker than a 306GTi-6. But a lot of people don't give a hoot - both older cars are quite capable of covering ground at illegal (and beyond that, dangerous) speeds. Who needs the extra pace?
Greatness is in the involvement, the immersion of oneself in the driving experience, the tactility and adjustability of the car, the sound and feel of it as you push it to 10/10ths, the sheer lunatic grin that creeps across your face as once again the car exceeds your expectations. In all those areas the DC2 scores up there with the best that BMW and Porsche can offer, and bites hard on the coat-tails of Lotus! It represents the drivers' car triple-distilled and filtered until nothing extraneous remains, nothing to smother the messages and corrupt the experience.
havoc said:
The EP3 is NOT great. Never has been, never will be. It's GOOD, it's flexible, and it was well-pitched for what the UK market wanted...but it's not one of the great drivers' cars
I'm quoting that! So what registers as a great drivers car? Listen to what tiff thinks about the CTR in the fifth gear review. I'm of the same opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7taI8slbPq0
havoc said:
Greatness is in the involvement, the immersion of oneself in the driving experience, the tactility and adjustability of the car, the sound and feel of it as you push it to 10/10ths, the sheer lunatic grin that creeps across your face as once again the car exceeds your expectations. In all those areas the DC2 scores up there with the best that BMW and Porsche can offer, and bites hard on the coat-tails of Lotus
Who's rose tinted glasses are you wearing? Scores up there with the best BMW & Porsche can offer? Wake up. Have you heard of the CSL or GT3?Ludicrous.
"An interesting and little publicised fact about the 1996-2001 DC2 Type R is that Honda lost money on every single vehicle sold, even though extra dealer markups sometimes made for excessive dealer profit. Honda produced the DC2 Type R for homologation purposes to meet FIA certification of the motor and the chassis changes to make the car more competitive in N-series and World Cup racing. The details required, hand tooling in early versions and finishing the product through the use of various small fabrication shops in Japan made for increased costs in manufacture that could not be made up in the list price of the vehicles. Honda (and Acura in the US) deemed the car important for the marque's image and important for the racing programmes of the era, and the parent company therefore accepted a financial net loss on each vehicle sold".
"The Type R's B18C5 engine contained more key differences than just some manual assembly steps and an increased redline. The B16A's cylinder head returned, with differently shaped combustion chambers and intake ports compared to the regular B18C in the GS-R. Molybdenum-coated, high compression pistons and stronger-but-lighter connecting rods strengthened the reciprocating assembly. Extra counterweighting on the crankshaft altered its vibration modes to enhance durability at high RPM. The intake valves were reshaped with a thinner stem and crown that reduced weight and improved flow. The intake ports were given a minor port and polish. Stiffer valve springs resisted float on more aggressive camshafts. Intake air was now drawn from inside the fender well, for a colder, denser charge. That intake fed a short-runner intake manifold with a larger throttle body for better breathing. An improved stainless steel exhaust collector with more gentle merge angles, a change to a larger, consistent piping diameter, flared internal piping in the muffler allowed easier exit of gases. A retuned engine computer also contributed to improved power output, which allowed the Type R to accelerate from 0 to 60 mph (100 km/h) in 6.2 seconds".
"The chassis received enhancements in the form of reinforcements to the rear wheel wells, roof rail, and other key areas. "Performance rods", chassis braces that were bolted in place, were added to the rear trunk wall and subframe. The front strut tower bar was replaced with a stronger aluminum piece, and the R also received the addition of a rear strut tower bar".
"The Type R received very aggressive tuning in its suspension settings. All soft rubber bushings were replaced with much stiffer versions, as much as 5.3 times higher in durometer readings. The springs and dampers were much stiffer, with a 10 mm (0.4 in) reduction in ride height. The rear anti-roll bar diameter was increased to 22 mm (0.9 in) in diameter. The front anti-roll bar retained the same size, although the end links were changed to a more responsive sealed ball joint as opposed to a rubber bushing on the lesser models. The result was a chassis with very responsive, racetrack-ready handling that ably absorbed mid-corner bumps. Mild oversteer was easy to induce with a lift of the throttle, and during steady-state cornering the car maintained a slight tail-out stance.
The interior was stripped down to reduce weight. The air conditioning system was removed in early models and nearly all the sound-dampening material was eliminated. This provided for a much noisier ride, but since the Type-R was marketed as a race car for the street, most owners didn't mind. The seats were also unique to the Type-R. Standard were weight saving Recaro racing seats".
Sorry if thats all a bit of a ramble but it should show that the is a fairly large distinction between the DC2 and the EP3.
The above and also the excellent summarisation a couple of posts ago by 10 Pence Short probably do sum up the DC2, it's not just the steering feel, it seems to run right through the whole car, really a race car for the road (or a road car designed to race?
). Having decided I really fancied an ATR, I went to see one yesterday, fully intending to come home with it. However it left me feeling flat in comparison with the Teg, and even though the example I saw wasn't quite as good as the advert had made out, I'm still not sure if I'd have bought it and kept it even if had been a minter. If I had it would probably have been down to the rarity of the car, I think as of 2006 there were only about 1700 on the roads in the UK, and finding a mint one isn't easy!
Edited by kingmoosa on Thursday 10th April 11:08
Furyous said:
MrFlibbles said:
I've never driven a 'teg - I'd love to see what all the fuss is about!
Mate, Im new to the party, only picked up my 98 Uk one a week ago.They speak the truth.
The two things that sum the car up for me (so far !) are....
1.The sense of occasion...It makes me grin just thinking about having to go anywhere in it.
2.Playful. It just feels like the damn thing wants to play...all the time.
Im already starting to fall for this car, and Ive not been on a proper hoon yet, or a trackday, both of which are going to feature heavily in this cars near future.
Buy one, you WILL NOT be disappointed.
pbirkett said:
Lee, enjoy your CTR mate, it is a good car, but the teg is a different animal. If you ever get to try one, keep an open mind because if you do I believe you would be impressed.
Just to clarify, I don't own a CTR and have driven various DC2's & 5's. The most fun? A DC5 with a supercharger. Edited by pbirkett on Thursday 10th April 08:33
I am not at all surprised by the previous posts as I know what I have said goes against the general consensus on this forum and to top it all I don't like MX5's either!
The EP3 has always suffered unfair criticism IMHO, even though it embodies the true Type-R spirit and is a great car to drive, it certainly has the Clio beaten in every area. The CTR is so far ahead in terms of it's engine, gearbox and build quality I feel bad for the Clio. The CTR is also a much more exciting drive as well.
As for the steering of the EP3, I hated the meaty feel to the steering the first time I drove one and was underwhelmed about the cars grunt and as such didn't buy one after the test drive, but then a year after that I had a accident in my car and borrowed my best friends CTR for a weekend as he is a squadie and was away. After spending a weekend hooning around in his CTR I feel in love and placed a deposit on one the following week.
Most people dismiss the CTR out of hand after a short test drive is my experience (I certainly did).
However people like tiff and other respected motoring journalists absolutely love the car and can say nothing bad about it, which is at odds with people's opinions on here.
_Lee_ said:
The EP3 has always suffered unfair criticism IMHO, even though it embodies the true Type-R spirit and is a great car to drive, it certainly has the Clio beaten in every area. The CTR is so far ahead in terms of it's engine, gearbox and build quality I feel bad for the Clio. The CTR is also a much more exciting drive as well.
I had an EP3 for 125,000 miles. Shortly afterwards I drove a brand new Clio 182 Cup. As far as fun was concerned, the Clio was a much better car. The chassis is more alive, the steering more communicative. The Civic certainly does not have the Clio beaten in every area.The EP3 was a 'raw' hot hatch at a time when the competition were producing watered down excuses with a GTI badge, which is why it got such good reviews from certain respected journalists, particularly the track biased ones. When compared to Honda's past efforts, it soon becomes obvious that the EP3 is severely compromised to an extent that the earlier Type-Rs weren't.
I'll give you a small example- the Gear lever in the DC2 is made from titanium. It's expensive, but good for the job. The gear lever in the EP3 is made from aluminium- because it's cheaper. The EP3 is a marketing mans Type-R, the DC2 is the engineers.
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