Which is the best Type R?
Discussion
_Lee_ said:
Just to clarify, I don't own a CTR and have driven various DC2's & 5's. The most fun? A DC5 with a supercharger.
I am not at all surprised by the previous posts as I know what I have said goes against the general consensus on this forum and to top it all I don't like MX5's either!
The EP3 has always suffered unfair criticism IMHO, even though it embodies the true Type-R spirit and is a great car to drive, it certainly has the Clio beaten in every area. The CTR is so far ahead in terms of it's engine, gearbox and build quality I feel bad for the Clio. The CTR is also a much more exciting drive as well.
As for the steering of the EP3, I hated the meaty feel to the steering the first time I drove one and was underwhelmed about the cars grunt and as such didn't buy one after the test drive, but then a year after that I had a accident in my car and borrowed my best friends CTR for a weekend as he is a squadie and was away. After spending a weekend hooning around in his CTR I feel in love and placed a deposit on one the following week.
Most people dismiss the CTR out of hand after a short test drive is my experience (I certainly did).
However people like tiff and other respected motoring journalists absolutely love the car and can say nothing bad about it, which is at odds with people's opinions on here.
Fair enough i assumed you had an EP3 - I am not the kind who checks every posters profile I am not at all surprised by the previous posts as I know what I have said goes against the general consensus on this forum and to top it all I don't like MX5's either!
The EP3 has always suffered unfair criticism IMHO, even though it embodies the true Type-R spirit and is a great car to drive, it certainly has the Clio beaten in every area. The CTR is so far ahead in terms of it's engine, gearbox and build quality I feel bad for the Clio. The CTR is also a much more exciting drive as well.
As for the steering of the EP3, I hated the meaty feel to the steering the first time I drove one and was underwhelmed about the cars grunt and as such didn't buy one after the test drive, but then a year after that I had a accident in my car and borrowed my best friends CTR for a weekend as he is a squadie and was away. After spending a weekend hooning around in his CTR I feel in love and placed a deposit on one the following week.
Most people dismiss the CTR out of hand after a short test drive is my experience (I certainly did).
However people like tiff and other respected motoring journalists absolutely love the car and can say nothing bad about it, which is at odds with people's opinions on here.
But anyway all i can say is this. I had test drives of the EP3 and the DC2 and the DC2 was the one I bought. It might be unfairly maligned by some but I have to say it was clear to me which car was by far the nicer car to drive and be seen in and I bought it. Each to their own of course.
I think most people here probably agree that the NSX-R is the best anyway but I for one couldnt afford one, but I am more than happy to slum it in a DC2
Lee,
Most motoring journos:-
a) Wouldn't have driven the DC2, as it wasn't publicised enough at-launch; and
b) Wouldn't compare a car with a no-longer-for-sale model, but with the direct competition at that time.
...and judged by the competition it only had 1 real competitor - the Clio, which was more involving/adjustable but nowhere near as well-built nor as practical. So for a few years if you wanted a new sub-£20k fast-car the Civic was an obvious choice.
The DC2 IS a clear step beyond the EP3 in terms of ability and 'fun' - you're in a minority if you think otherwise, regardless of how many journo's you quote, as NONE OF THOSE QUOTES REFER TO A DC2 AS WELL AS AN EP3!!! So, can we close this one off now?
Most motoring journos:-
a) Wouldn't have driven the DC2, as it wasn't publicised enough at-launch; and
b) Wouldn't compare a car with a no-longer-for-sale model, but with the direct competition at that time.
...and judged by the competition it only had 1 real competitor - the Clio, which was more involving/adjustable but nowhere near as well-built nor as practical. So for a few years if you wanted a new sub-£20k fast-car the Civic was an obvious choice.
The DC2 IS a clear step beyond the EP3 in terms of ability and 'fun' - you're in a minority if you think otherwise, regardless of how many journo's you quote, as NONE OF THOSE QUOTES REFER TO A DC2 AS WELL AS AN EP3!!! So, can we close this one off now?
havoc said:
Lee,
Most motoring journos:-
a) Wouldn't have driven the DC2, as it wasn't publicised enough at-launch; and
b) Wouldn't compare a car with a no-longer-for-sale model, but with the direct competition at that time.
...and judged by the competition it only had 1 real competitor - the Clio, which was more involving/adjustable but nowhere near as well-built nor as practical. So for a few years if you wanted a new sub-£20k fast-car the Civic was an obvious choice.
The DC2 IS a clear step beyond the EP3 in terms of ability and 'fun' - you're in a minority if you think otherwise, regardless of how many journo's you quote, as NONE OF THOSE QUOTES REFER TO A DC2 AS WELL AS AN EP3!!! So, can we close this one off now?
I won't post after this as I feel this is going nowhere fast.Most motoring journos:-
a) Wouldn't have driven the DC2, as it wasn't publicised enough at-launch; and
b) Wouldn't compare a car with a no-longer-for-sale model, but with the direct competition at that time.
...and judged by the competition it only had 1 real competitor - the Clio, which was more involving/adjustable but nowhere near as well-built nor as practical. So for a few years if you wanted a new sub-£20k fast-car the Civic was an obvious choice.
The DC2 IS a clear step beyond the EP3 in terms of ability and 'fun' - you're in a minority if you think otherwise, regardless of how many journo's you quote, as NONE OF THOSE QUOTES REFER TO A DC2 AS WELL AS AN EP3!!! So, can we close this one off now?
The reason I quoted motoring journo's was for the sole purpose of getting the car the recognition it deserves as a great car and most certainly worthy of the Type R badge.
For pure fun the DC2 is ahead but in other areas it obviously isn't.
How anyone can call such a uncompromising hot hatch a marketing ploy is off their rocker. If it was pure marketing the car would have been aimed at a number of markets rather than one type of specific buyer don't you think?
The Golf GTI/LCR/S3 etc were marketing, the CTR wasn't.
i test drove a CTR before buying a DC2. That should say a lot as it seems to have happened many times to people. The CTR was more VTi than type r. It seemed to have lost the concept of weight reduction, removal of sound insulation and sharp steering. It certainly went fast but that was it. no aural stimulation or feedback through the butt. I got rid of the prevoius choice of ordering a new boxster and bought the teg. that was 6 years ago. I cant bring myself to get a cayman( the only car i feel comes close at mo)or buy a collegues EVO v11 cheaply, as i know i would loose a part of my soul.
_Lee_ said:
For pure fun the DC2 is ahead but in other areas it obviously isn't.
Well, the DC2 matches the EP3 for practicality (remember, I've owned and run both). The DC2 trounces the EP3 in terms of reliability and the residuals of the DC2 are also far better than those of the EP3.The only area in which the EP3 beats the Integra at all is in refinement- which is hardly part of the Type-R ethos.
_Lee_ said:
How anyone can call such a uncompromising hot hatch a marketing ploy is off their rocker. If it was pure marketing the car would have been aimed at a number of markets rather than one type of specific buyer don't you think?
Sorry, but the EP3 was absolutely a marketing first car. Mechanically, in EU guise at least, there wasn't the attention to detail and anal work done in the same way as you'd see on the Integra. Even the interior was completely watered down to match costs rather than performance.The EP3 was watered down precisely to play to a wider audience than the Integra ever could have done, after all, this was a car designed to make Honda Manufacturing UK a profit, as opposed to the Integra which was imported to demonstrate Honda's engineering prowess at a cost. Honda were selling 10 times the number of CTRs as they could have done Integras.
_Lee_ said:
The Golf GTI/LCR/S3 etc were marketing, the CTR wasn't.
Honda timed the introduction of the Civic just right- when launched it seemed amazing to have nearly 200bhp in a £15k hot hatch. It was a trick Honda could only play once, and to their credit, it worked. In a very short space of time they lost most of the advantage, though and for some inexplicable reason, made the latest CTR even worse than its predecessor.Edited by 10 Pence Short on Friday 11th April 09:03
Reliability? Not been hugely covered in this thread. I was talking to a mechanic who works for my friend. The EP3 Civic Type R has your normal sized warranty claim/issues folder at my friends Honda garage (he runs a franchise). The Integra Type R? Not a single issue, so no folder, honest! (We weren't in the pub at the time either, or doing mind bending drugs, and I wasn't stopping him from working either 
if you are reading this, Adolf!)
if you are reading this, Adolf!)In my 23 months with my CTR...
2 new rear suspension arms
4 new alloy wheels
3 new steering racks
3 replacement steering control units
1 new exhaust manifold
1 new gearbox
1 replacement anti roll bar
More than one week in total in the dealership having dashboard rattles sorted
And a blocked throttle body
I worked out that in those 23 months the car had averaged more than 2 unscheduled days in the dealership every single month.
The Integra had two faults, one a well known one- 3rd and 4th gear synchros needed replacing at just over 40,000 miles (done under warranty) and the other was a sheared bolt on the AC belt tensioner, which was a freak and fixed under warranty, too.
2 new rear suspension arms
4 new alloy wheels
3 new steering racks
3 replacement steering control units
1 new exhaust manifold
1 new gearbox
1 replacement anti roll bar
More than one week in total in the dealership having dashboard rattles sorted
And a blocked throttle body
I worked out that in those 23 months the car had averaged more than 2 unscheduled days in the dealership every single month.
The Integra had two faults, one a well known one- 3rd and 4th gear synchros needed replacing at just over 40,000 miles (done under warranty) and the other was a sheared bolt on the AC belt tensioner, which was a freak and fixed under warranty, too.
10 Pence Short said:
In my 23 months with my CTR...
2 new rear suspension arms
4 new alloy wheels
3 new steering racks
3 replacement steering control units
1 new exhaust manifold
1 new gearbox
1 replacement anti roll bar
More than one week in total in the dealership having dashboard rattles sorted
And a blocked throttle body
I worked out that in those 23 months the car had averaged more than 2 unscheduled days in the dealership every single month.
The Integra had two faults, one a well known one- 3rd and 4th gear synchros needed replacing at just over 40,000 miles (done under warranty) and the other was a sheared bolt on the AC belt tensioner, which was a freak and fixed under warranty, too.
Seem's like you owned a dog, I owned one for two years and did 55k without any problem at all. 2 new rear suspension arms
4 new alloy wheels
3 new steering racks
3 replacement steering control units
1 new exhaust manifold
1 new gearbox
1 replacement anti roll bar
More than one week in total in the dealership having dashboard rattles sorted
And a blocked throttle body
I worked out that in those 23 months the car had averaged more than 2 unscheduled days in the dealership every single month.
The Integra had two faults, one a well known one- 3rd and 4th gear synchros needed replacing at just over 40,000 miles (done under warranty) and the other was a sheared bolt on the AC belt tensioner, which was a freak and fixed under warranty, too.
I'm sure people owned DC2's with just as many problems.
See here for the reliability of the car;http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/reliability/results.html?carid0=honda_civic_2004
kingmoosa said:
Reliability? Not been hugely covered in this thread. I was talking to a mechanic who works for my friend. The EP3 Civic Type R has your normal sized warranty claim/issues folder at my friends Honda garage (he runs a franchise). The Integra Type R? Not a single issue, so no folder, honest! (We weren't in the pub at the time either, or doing mind bending drugs, and I wasn't stopping him from working either if you are reading this, Adolf!)
I guess your friend sees no ITR's then! As there is no way they don't have run of the mill work done, especially given their age now. if you are reading this, Adolf!)_Lee_ said:
10 Pence Short said:
In my 23 months with my CTR...
2 new rear suspension arms
4 new alloy wheels
3 new steering racks
3 replacement steering control units
1 new exhaust manifold
1 new gearbox
1 replacement anti roll bar
More than one week in total in the dealership having dashboard rattles sorted
And a blocked throttle body
I worked out that in those 23 months the car had averaged more than 2 unscheduled days in the dealership every single month.
The Integra had two faults, one a well known one- 3rd and 4th gear synchros needed replacing at just over 40,000 miles (done under warranty) and the other was a sheared bolt on the AC belt tensioner, which was a freak and fixed under warranty, too.
Seem's like you owned a dog, I owned one for two years and did 55k without any problem at all. 2 new rear suspension arms
4 new alloy wheels
3 new steering racks
3 replacement steering control units
1 new exhaust manifold
1 new gearbox
1 replacement anti roll bar
More than one week in total in the dealership having dashboard rattles sorted
And a blocked throttle body
I worked out that in those 23 months the car had averaged more than 2 unscheduled days in the dealership every single month.
The Integra had two faults, one a well known one- 3rd and 4th gear synchros needed replacing at just over 40,000 miles (done under warranty) and the other was a sheared bolt on the AC belt tensioner, which was a freak and fixed under warranty, too.
I'm sure people owned DC2's with just as many problems.
See here for the reliability of the car;http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/reliability/results.html?carid0=honda_civic_2004
For the record, the steering rack was a huge issue for Honda UK, as was the suspension arm issue which affected a large number of cars. Not to mention the alloy wheel lacquer corrosion which was also very common.
The EP3 did not match Honda's usual reliability as a model.
10 Pence Short said:
_Lee_ said:
For pure fun the DC2 is ahead but in other areas it obviously isn't.
Well, the DC2 matches the EP3 for practicality (remember, I've owned and run both). The DC2 trounces the EP3 in terms of reliability and the residuals of the DC2 are also far better than those of the EP3.The only area in which the EP3 beats the Integra at all is in refinement- which is hardly part of the Type-R ethos.
_Lee_ said:
How anyone can call such a uncompromising hot hatch a marketing ploy is off their rocker. If it was pure marketing the car would have been aimed at a number of markets rather than one type of specific buyer don't you think?
Sorry, but the EP3 was absolutely a marketing first car. Mechanically, in EU guise at least, there wasn't the attention to detail and anal work done in the same way as you'd see on the Integra. Even the interior was completely watered down to match costs rather than performance.The EP3 was watered down precisely to play to a wider audience than the Integra ever could have done, after all, this was a car designed to make Honda Manufacturing UK a profit, as opposed to the Integra which was imported to demonstrate Honda's engineering prowess at a cost. Honda were selling 10 times the number of CTRs as they could have done Integras.
_Lee_ said:
The Golf GTI/LCR/S3 etc were marketing, the CTR wasn't.
Honda timed the introduction of the Civic just right- when launched it seemed amazing to have nearly 200bhp in a £15k hot hatch. It was a trick Honda could only play once, and to their credit, it worked. In a very short space of time they lost most of the advantage, though and for some inexplicable reason, made the latest CTR even worse than its predecessor.Edited by 10 Pence Short on Friday 11th April 09:03
...DC2 trounces the EP3 in terms of reliability - Stats to back that up please.
The CTR was always going to thrash the ITR in terms of sales. You may have already guess there is a considerable market for a mid sized hatch so it's hardly surprising such a good Type R at a decent price was able to sell in big numbers. We will have to disagree on the other marketing issue, I think if it was a marketing ploy, the car would have been softer, with more sound proofing and toys to attract more buyers as the car's way to raw for most people. See the modern CTR for a marketing ploy.
On another note, how many people here think the DC2's engine is superior to the CTR's?
_Lee_ said:
Oh come on, how can you say the DC2 is a practical as the CTR? Can you comfortably sit 5 people in a DC2?
You can't seat 5 people in the Civic any better than in the DC2. Both are designed for 4 people._Lee_ said:
The CTR was always going to thrash the ITR in terms of sales. You may have already guess there is a considerable market for a mid sized hatch so it's hardly surprising such a good Type R at a decent price was able to sell in big numbers. We will have to disagree on the other marketing issue, I think if it was a marketing ploy, the car would have been softer, with more sound proofing and toys to attract more buyers as the car's way to raw for most people. See the modern CTR for a marketing ploy.
Are you on acid? The EP3 is soft and watered down compared to the ITR. We're not here to compare it against the Mk4 Golf GTI or the Astra SRi. Honda wanted a car to sell numbers so it used the Type-R badge to give the car some kudos, kudos which was earned by the Integra.The EP3, and now the FN2, are both prime examples of what Honda used to call a VTI.
_Lee_ said:
On another note, how many people here think the DC2's engine is superior to the CTR's?
The K20 is technically better in that is has better emissions, is lighter and more economical. It is not an engine living on the edge like the B18 and driving a car fitted with one does not impress the driver as much.Edited by 10 Pence Short on Friday 11th April 13:53
Just my 2p worth- I had a DC2 for 3 years and traded it in for an Exige. I still yearn to have a drive in the Integra again though (not saying it's better, but it was superb!). It was brilliant to drive and own. Never driven a CTR so can't comment. It's still a buzz to see an Integra, but the CTRs are er... (careful now) less rare, shall we say.
I like popping back to this forum to see people praising the old Teg!!
I like popping back to this forum to see people praising the old Teg!!
Can I just add that, in this thread, you're arguing with a few people who would describe themselves as Honda enthusiasts and have been so for quite a long time.
We're people who've driven most of what Honda have had to offer over the years and therefore can offer a balanced opinion on what is where.
I have no more incentive to like the Integra than I do to dislike the EP3, I'm just telling it as someone who's lived a lot with both and who's been involved with the 'Honda scene' for a long time.
We're people who've driven most of what Honda have had to offer over the years and therefore can offer a balanced opinion on what is where.
I have no more incentive to like the Integra than I do to dislike the EP3, I'm just telling it as someone who's lived a lot with both and who's been involved with the 'Honda scene' for a long time.
10 Pence Short said:
_Lee_ said:
Oh come on, how can you say the DC2 is a practical as the CTR? Can you comfortably sit 5 people in a DC2?
You can't seat 5 people in the Civic any better than in the DC2. Both are designed for 4 people._Lee_ said:
The CTR was always going to thrash the ITR in terms of sales. You may have already guess there is a considerable market for a mid sized hatch so it's hardly surprising such a good Type R at a decent price was able to sell in big numbers. We will have to disagree on the other marketing issue, I think if it was a marketing ploy, the car would have been softer, with more sound proofing and toys to attract more buyers as the car's way to raw for most people. See the modern CTR for a marketing ploy.
10 Pence Short said:
Are you on acid? The EP3 is soft and watered down compared to the ITR. We're not here to compare it against the Mk4 Golf GTI or the Astra SRi. Honda wanted a car to sell numbers so it used the Type-R badge to give the car some kudos, kudos which was earned by the Integra.
You completely missed the point there. We were talking about marketing and not DC2 vs CTR. The CTR was marketed as hard core which it certainly was against the competition of the time.10 Pence Short said:
The EP3, and now the FN2, are both prime examples of what Honda used to call a VTI.
_Lee_ said:
On another note, how many people here think the DC2's engine is superior to the CTR's?
10 Pence Short said:
The K20 is technically better in that is has better emissions, is lighter and more economical. It is not an engine living on the edge like the B18 and driving a car fitted with none does not impress the driver as much.
Please explain what you mean by impress the driver?Edited by _Lee_ on Friday 11th April 14:01
10 Pence Short said:
Can I just add that, in this thread, you're arguing with a few people who would describe themselves as Honda enthusiasts and have been so for quite a long time.
We're people who've driven most of what Honda have had to offer over the years and therefore can offer a balanced opinion on what is where.
I have no more incentive to like the Integra than I do to dislike the EP3, I'm just telling it as someone who's lived a lot with both and who's been involved with the 'Honda scene' for a long time.
Yes same here thanks. I'm not some spotty 17 year old kid, I feel I can give a balanced opinion about the cars.We're people who've driven most of what Honda have had to offer over the years and therefore can offer a balanced opinion on what is where.
I have no more incentive to like the Integra than I do to dislike the EP3, I'm just telling it as someone who's lived a lot with both and who's been involved with the 'Honda scene' for a long time.
The CTR was never going to be as hardcore as the DC2 given where it came from and it's market, however to call it soft or a cop out is boarding ridiculous.
I have always been a Honda fan and respect all of the cars (even the Jazz), however somewhere along the line it became fashionable to knock the EP3 and sing the praises of the DC2 in some circles (here, Evo magazine etc).
For all of the titanium gear knobs weight reduction, driving the cars on a daily basis imho isn't vastly different. The CTR is a little more comfortable, the engine a little more flexible and the DC2 is a little more fun and communicative and has a more pronounced VTEC kick.
_Lee_ said:
Complete rubbish. The DC2 has nowhere near as much cabin space as the CTR.
Look, if you're going to be argumentative for the sake of it, do it somewhere else. You appear to be forgetting that I've lived with BOTH.In terms of space, I found it just as easy to live with the Integra as I did the Civic. Both are hatchbacks with a decent amount of space and both seat 4 people.
For what it's worth I wouldn't wish the back seats of either car on anybody for a significant length of time because neither are that comfortable. Try taking the bench out of the Civic and take a look at the thickness, or lack of it, in the cushioning.
But we're digressing- this topic is about which was the best Type-R- NOT which has the best interior space, as surely this is not how such cars are measured. Otherwise every every Type-R would be viewed as inferior to, say, a CRV. Is that what you think?
A Type-R should be about the driving, not the passengering.
_Lee_ said:
You completely missed the point there. We were talking about marketing and not DC2 vs CTR. The CTR was marketed as hard core which it certainly was against the competition of the time.
When the B series was introduced over here about 1990, it was a 1.6 litre engine producing 150bhp at just shy of 8500rpm. This engine was developed into the B18 eventually powering the Integra as a 1.8 with 197bhp in Japanese versions. That engine has not a lot of refinement, it doesn't want to be anything other than a performance engine. When you use it, it doesn't feel like a road engine, it feels like something alive- like it wants to behave realy, really badly- and it's encouraging you to misbehave with it. The responses of the engine, the behaviour as the revs rise, the noise all conspire to make an engine that is an absolute pleasure to use.10 Pence Short said:
The EP3, and now the FN2, are both prime examples of what Honda used to call a VTI.
You're doing it again. This thread is NOT about whether the EP3 was better or worse than other marques efforts, it's about how it is relative to the other cars badged Type-R made by Honda. I don't think it takes a genius to work out that the Integra is held in much higher esteem by those who've run one than the EP3 is by people who've driven both. The reason for that is that it's a much better drivers car._Lee_ said:
On another note, how many people here think the DC2's engine is superior to the CTR's?
10 Pence Short said:
The K20 is technically better in that is has better emissions, is lighter and more economical. It is not an engine living on the edge like the B18 and driving a car fitted with none does not impress the driver as much.
Please explain what you mean by impress the driver?The K20 on the other hand, never feels the same in the Civic. At low revs it feels no more special than the lower powered versions of the K20, the feeling of anticipation when the revs rise isn't there. It's just not as raw.
If Type-R was supposed to be about compromises for performance and rawness, the EP3 forgot all about it. It was just another middle-of-the-road hatch (are you seriously going to say the normal Civic was anything but mediocre?) with some stiffer suspension and a 200bhp engine.
Good god, where to start?
Reliability / build quality: It is an established fact that the EP3 series DID NOT live up to Honda's usual standards. In addition to Dan's comments add paint quality issues which affected a number of cars. The EP3 would still trounce the Clio for both build quality and reliability, but it DID represent a backward step for Honda.
Practicality: DC2 boot quite a big bigger, albeit less-useful aperture. Rear legroom marginally greater in DC2, albeit less headroom. Both are 4-seaters not 5-seaters in reality.
Engine: For an 'everyday car' the K20A is a better engine. But the B18C6, as Dan has said, FEELS more up-for-it. It's half-way to being a race engine, and is a significant part in the character of the car - you either like it or you don't. It certainly sounds better - the only 4-pots I've heard which can compete have carbs or throttle-bodies...
The drive: Day-to-day driving ISN'T vastly different between the two, no. But PERFORMANCE DRIVING, on road or track, IS. The Integra is docile, communicative and rewarding at the limit, and there is something about it which continually encourages you to push it to the limit. The EP3 requires a little more 'leap-of-faith'*, and while it does have a very competent chassis (although the lack of all-round double-wishbones was a backward step), you're never quite as certain it's on your side. That is the one area the Clio 172/182 has the EP3 licked in, and the DC2 shows them both the way (home/round the Nordschliefe/it should be done!).
Lee - none of us are saying the EP3-R isn't a good car. It's one of the best hot-hatches from the first half of this decade, and I'd recommend one as a 2nd-hand buy to someone in that market. But it doesn't bear comparison with the DC2 as a driving tool, which ultimately (as Dan has already said) is what the Type-R philosophy is about.
Reliability / build quality: It is an established fact that the EP3 series DID NOT live up to Honda's usual standards. In addition to Dan's comments add paint quality issues which affected a number of cars. The EP3 would still trounce the Clio for both build quality and reliability, but it DID represent a backward step for Honda.
Practicality: DC2 boot quite a big bigger, albeit less-useful aperture. Rear legroom marginally greater in DC2, albeit less headroom. Both are 4-seaters not 5-seaters in reality.
Engine: For an 'everyday car' the K20A is a better engine. But the B18C6, as Dan has said, FEELS more up-for-it. It's half-way to being a race engine, and is a significant part in the character of the car - you either like it or you don't. It certainly sounds better - the only 4-pots I've heard which can compete have carbs or throttle-bodies...
The drive: Day-to-day driving ISN'T vastly different between the two, no. But PERFORMANCE DRIVING, on road or track, IS. The Integra is docile, communicative and rewarding at the limit, and there is something about it which continually encourages you to push it to the limit. The EP3 requires a little more 'leap-of-faith'*, and while it does have a very competent chassis (although the lack of all-round double-wishbones was a backward step), you're never quite as certain it's on your side. That is the one area the Clio 172/182 has the EP3 licked in, and the DC2 shows them both the way (home/round the Nordschliefe/it should be done!
).Lee - none of us are saying the EP3-R isn't a good car. It's one of the best hot-hatches from the first half of this decade, and I'd recommend one as a 2nd-hand buy to someone in that market. But it doesn't bear comparison with the DC2 as a driving tool, which ultimately (as Dan has already said) is what the Type-R philosophy is about.
- My S2000 is quite similar in this regard - another electronic PAS Honda from approx the same era.
_Lee_ said:
quote=kingmoosa]Reliability? Not been hugely covered in this thread. I was talking to a mechanic who works for my friend. The EP3 Civic Type R has your normal sized warranty claim/issues folder at my friends Honda garage (he runs a franchise). The Integra Type R? Not a single issue, so no folder, honest! (We weren't in the pub at the time either, or doing mind bending drugs, and I wasn't stopping him from working either if you are reading this, Adolf!)
if you are reading this, Adolf!)_Lee_ said:
I guess your friend sees no ITR's then! As there is no way they don't have run of the mill work done, especially given their age now.
Lee I was just referring to the lack of a warranty file in the workshop for Integras. They do indeed have run of the mill work done, especially when you consider their age, but that is different from known issues which have to be rectified on a regular basis via the warranty scheme. There are loads of known and repeating issues on the EP3, but none on the DC2, hence the lack of a warranty file, a warranty file being a list of all known issues which repeat themselves for a particular model. When an ITR comes into the workshop with a problem, that problem will have to be diagnosed and rectified individually, because there simply isn't a folder on the shelf which will point to regular problems manifesting themselves time and time again (which make up the warranty files on other models). I think you might have misunderstood the point I was trying to make, I hope this clears it up a bit Edited by kingmoosa on Friday 11th April 17:18
Edited by kingmoosa on Friday 11th April 23:38
10 Pence Short said:
_Lee_ said:
10 Pence Short said:
In my 23 months with my CTR...
2 new rear suspension arms
4 new alloy wheels
3 new steering racks
3 replacement steering control units
1 new exhaust manifold
1 new gearbox
1 replacement anti roll bar
More than one week in total in the dealership having dashboard rattles sorted
And a blocked throttle body
I worked out that in those 23 months the car had averaged more than 2 unscheduled days in the dealership every single month.
The Integra had two faults, one a well known one- 3rd and 4th gear synchros needed replacing at just over 40,000 miles (done under warranty) and the other was a sheared bolt on the AC belt tensioner, which was a freak and fixed under warranty, too.
Seem's like you owned a dog, I owned one for two years and did 55k without any problem at all. 2 new rear suspension arms
4 new alloy wheels
3 new steering racks
3 replacement steering control units
1 new exhaust manifold
1 new gearbox
1 replacement anti roll bar
More than one week in total in the dealership having dashboard rattles sorted
And a blocked throttle body
I worked out that in those 23 months the car had averaged more than 2 unscheduled days in the dealership every single month.
The Integra had two faults, one a well known one- 3rd and 4th gear synchros needed replacing at just over 40,000 miles (done under warranty) and the other was a sheared bolt on the AC belt tensioner, which was a freak and fixed under warranty, too.
I'm sure people owned DC2's with just as many problems.
See here for the reliability of the car;http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/reliability/results.html?carid0=honda_civic_2004
For the record, the steering rack was a huge issue for Honda UK, as was the suspension arm issue which affected a large number of cars. Not to mention the alloy wheel lacquer corrosion which was also very common.
The EP3 did not match Honda's usual reliability as a model.
k. i have an 06 model, hope she is ok for a while.just put aem cold air on her yest, love that s
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