Nurburgring - new lap record for a sham road car
Discussion
I'm surprised that no one's begun a thread for this, although joe911 and jacobyte both referred to it on the Your Nurburgring Times Please thread.
On Thursday a car bearing "Edo" livery did a 7:15 lap. You can expect a full report (in German, naturally) in the forthcoming Sport Auto.
The car was on road tyres (Pirelli Corsas), and there were what appeared to be genuine German registration plates affixed front and rear. These features were included, no doubt, to enable the Edo people to claim a new road car record.
PHers should not take this "record" too seriously. In this man's opinion, the Edo car represented a new, Grand Canyon-wide gap between record-breakers and actual road cars.
To wit, is anyone aware of any Porsche 996 road car that came from the factory with:
- a sequential gearbox,
- a fully cross-braced, welded cage, and,
- ahem, air jacks?
In case you were wondering, the car also lacked a handbrake.
The car was, in essence, an RSR with a turbo engine.
These guys might try to claim the record, but if they did they would just be making themselves look silly.
They could, on the other hand, do the honest thing and post the 7:15 time amongst times for other race cars, but then their time would be uncompetitive, and what is the point of running a race car on road tyres anyhow?
This is not to knock the guy (something Simon) who drove it - 7:15 in anything is very impressive.
Maybe this will induce Sport Auto to initiate two or more separate classes of record times for cars bearing licence plates.
>> Edited by flemke on Sunday 7th August 21:57
On Thursday a car bearing "Edo" livery did a 7:15 lap. You can expect a full report (in German, naturally) in the forthcoming Sport Auto.
The car was on road tyres (Pirelli Corsas), and there were what appeared to be genuine German registration plates affixed front and rear. These features were included, no doubt, to enable the Edo people to claim a new road car record.
PHers should not take this "record" too seriously. In this man's opinion, the Edo car represented a new, Grand Canyon-wide gap between record-breakers and actual road cars.
To wit, is anyone aware of any Porsche 996 road car that came from the factory with:
- a sequential gearbox,
- a fully cross-braced, welded cage, and,
- ahem, air jacks?
In case you were wondering, the car also lacked a handbrake.
The car was, in essence, an RSR with a turbo engine.
These guys might try to claim the record, but if they did they would just be making themselves look silly.
They could, on the other hand, do the honest thing and post the 7:15 time amongst times for other race cars, but then their time would be uncompetitive, and what is the point of running a race car on road tyres anyhow?
This is not to knock the guy (something Simon) who drove it - 7:15 in anything is very impressive.
Maybe this will induce Sport Auto to initiate two or more separate classes of record times for cars bearing licence plates.
>> Edited by flemke on Sunday 7th August 21:57
Are the "rules" to this hotly contested NS event online anywhere?
Air jacks would seem to just be ballast, as would an aftermarket cage (extra stiffening a separate matter). Who makes the gearbox? What are the details on the motor?
those are probably the biggest street tires available...
Kurt
Air jacks would seem to just be ballast, as would an aftermarket cage (extra stiffening a separate matter). Who makes the gearbox? What are the details on the motor?
those are probably the biggest street tires available...
Kurt
joe911 said:Sorry, old boy. As there have been so many other 'Ring-related threads on TD&DE, I expected any discussion about the record to be here, rather than on a forum that lately has comprised, among numerous other subjects, shooting brakes, favourite driving songs, memorable reg plates and whether diesel is flammable.
I'm surprised that no one's begun a thread for this, although joe911 and jacobyte both referred to it on the Your Nurburgring Times Please thread.
I did - here
kedelbach said:Kurt,
Are the "rules" to this hotly contested NS event online anywhere?
Air jacks would seem to just be ballast, as would an aftermarket cage (extra stiffening a separate matter). Who makes the gearbox? What are the details on the motor?
those are probably the biggest street tires available...
Kurt
I think the point is that this car is and always was a race car, which from its creation had an integral cage and the airjacks.
The rear tyres were, IIRC, 315/30/18. The widest road tyres (for a performance automobile) made are 345, although I think the Veyron's intended spec is 365 for the rears.
I don't think Edo are registered as a manufacturer (?), so it can only be a tuned 'road-car' anyway. If you allow tuned roadcars in (aka the Gemballa etc) then anyone could turn a fast road registered car into a road-legal race-car. Interesting to know about, but they should be in a different class.
Guy
PS Pirelli make a 355/25/19 PZero Rosso Asymmetrico
flemke said:
Kurt,
I think the point is that this car is and always was a race car
and based on how it is driven on Tourist days, there are a few Ringers who agree with the statement :/
Though I have been passed by them many times, one Edo experience stands out: he went by on the inside, at a schocking speed, right about at the turn in of Schwedenkreuz. Of course was gone before I braked for Aremberg.... only to show up again on the right shoulder of Spiegelkurv. Slowed way down, thinking they crashed, but see no damage, and note that the Edo's female passenger was doubled up against the armco, heaving quite violently
it wasn't the latest one, but still surely pushed the boundaries of "street legal"
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/kedelbach/detail?.dir=20c1&.dnm=bc77.jpg&.src=ph
flemke said:
which from its creation had an integral cage and the airjacks.
I see your point of course. Those cars belong in the VLN or 24hrs, not on the street, or on the NS during Touristenfahrt.
There must be a Herr or Frau Edo working at high levels in the TÜV offices to get those things road registered!
Kurt
I was there and inspected the car closely. I looked at the tyres first, and was happy enough that they complied with the spirit of things and certainly had legal tread depth.
The car itself is another matter altogether! The front splitter had less than 2" ground clearance, and would scrape on anything but level surfaces. As Flemke pointed out it is an out and out race car, and really is not even attempting to comply with the regulations for a road car, however extreme. I questiont the legality of attaching number plates to that car.
I'll take nothing away from the pilot, but Edo should put their balls on the line in the VLN is they want to gain any credibility in my eyes. Where do you think they would place against the likes of the Manthey prepared cars?
Must say they have a beautiful transporter though...
The car itself is another matter altogether! The front splitter had less than 2" ground clearance, and would scrape on anything but level surfaces. As Flemke pointed out it is an out and out race car, and really is not even attempting to comply with the regulations for a road car, however extreme. I questiont the legality of attaching number plates to that car.
I'll take nothing away from the pilot, but Edo should put their balls on the line in the VLN is they want to gain any credibility in my eyes. Where do you think they would place against the likes of the Manthey prepared cars?
Must say they have a beautiful transporter though...
kedelbach said:My guess - and this is purely a guess - is that they either took the VIN from a crashed GT3 or they went to someone working at a very low level in the TUV. I have seen a GT3 Cup car (out-and-out race car) with German reg plates for which someone claimed to have paid a grand in return for TUV road approval - without modifications.
There must be a Herr or Frau Edo working at high levels in the TÜV offices to get those things road registered!
Kurt
A bit like when a car in the UK gets an MOT without having been seen by an MOT examiner.
These inspection games used to go on all the time back in the US, until our state gov started cracking down, and issuing BIG fines to stations caught doing the ol "stick the emissions probe up the new Civic's tailpipe, then slap the sticker on the supercharged Vette...". Once places realized that their $20,000 testing equipment would be confiscated at the very least, it became virtually impossible to find anyone willing to take that risk.
Along these lines, it's really quite amazing that N GmbH would allow this car to run during Tourist day, IF something fishy with the plates/registration actually happened (and, being Germany, it's a safe bet that this car didn't travel the same TÜV route as those Golf's with big wheel spacers). Imagine a fatal crash involving a car (driven almost constantly on the NS during TF) registered under false pretenses. The ramifications would be BIG.
the plot thickens...
Kurt
Along these lines, it's really quite amazing that N GmbH would allow this car to run during Tourist day, IF something fishy with the plates/registration actually happened (and, being Germany, it's a safe bet that this car didn't travel the same TÜV route as those Golf's with big wheel spacers). Imagine a fatal crash involving a car (driven almost constantly on the NS during TF) registered under false pretenses. The ramifications would be BIG.
the plot thickens...
Kurt
flemke said:
There must be a Herr or Frau Edo working at high levels in the TÜV offices to get those things road registered!
Kurt
My guess - and this is purely a guess - is that they either took the VIN from a crashed GT3 or they went to someone working at a very low level in the TUV. I have seen a GT3 Cup car (out-and-out race car) with German reg plates for which someone claimed to have paid a grand in return for TUV road approval - without modifications.
A bit like when a car in the UK gets an MOT without having been seen by an MOT examiner.
kedelbach said:It can't be the responsibility of 'Ring management to do their own independent TUV inspection of a car. If someone is perpetrating a fraud, that's a job for the police.
Along these lines, it's really quite amazing that N GmbH would allow this car to run during Tourist day, IF something fishy with the plates/registration actually happened (and, being Germany, it's a safe bet that this car didn't travel the same TÜV route as those Golf's with big wheel spacers). Imagine a fatal crash involving a car (driven almost constantly on the NS during TF) registered under false pretenses. The ramifications would be BIG.
the plot thickens...
Kurt
I myself could not say whether the car was road-legal. Perhaps the Edo car has a handbrake lever hidden under the seat, or an electronic actuator on the dashboard.
Maybe handbrakes are not required by the TUV... I don't think that on this forum we should go too far in suggesting that the car was not road-legal. What we can opine on is whether the car ought to qualify for a production road-car record, and it plainly should not.
I think Norman Simon drove the car - and fair play. Everyone moans about what does or does not make a road car but lets be honest the car looks perfectly capable of being driven on road and I'm sure it costs a great deal less than a Carrera GT, Zonda or Enzo so whats the problem?
Surely the good thing is that more people are stepping up to the plate to make fast laps?
Surely the good thing is that more people are stepping up to the plate to make fast laps?
p490kvp said:
I think Norman Simon drove the car - and fair play. Everyone moans about what does or does not make a road car but lets be honest the car looks perfectly capable of being driven on road and I'm sure it costs a great deal less than a Carrera GT, Zonda or Enzo so whats the problem?
Surely the good thing is that more people are stepping up to the plate to make fast laps?
There are many cars which look capable of being driven on the street, but are all out racers in actuality. They do not conform to the regulations and if you were to be caught driving one of them on a public road, you would be in for some serious fines. The Edo is one of these cars. I inspected the car closely, and can assure you that it is in no way a street car. I would doubt seriously if it ever was.
The Nordschleife is in fact a public road and during Touristenfahrt. I question whether the Edo should even be allowed on the track during Touristenfahrt, never mind being considered for setting some sort of hokey record. The fact that it wore street tyres does not make it a street car.
I'm all for a bit of competition, and love to see people pushing the envelope, but this is pure and simple a commercially driven publicity stunt.
>> Edited by hammerwerfer on Monday 8th August 17:43
kedelbach said:Kurt,
There must be a Herr or Frau Edo working at high levels in the TÜV offices to get those things road registered!
Kurt
Es wird nichts so heiß gegessen, wie es gekocht wird - With a bit time and effort, you can get many things through with the TÜV. When you have special requirements, you just book an academic from the TÜV and discuss things you prepared before. There's a lot possible doing an Einzelabnahme for special features of a car. On a research project, some fellow students and I prepared a vehicle for damper testing. The car, a V8 barge, had a measuring wheel for the front left tyre, that lead all forces through a centre boss with strain gauges. The outer rim came off a three-piece BBS wheel, and us students turned the adapter on a lathe. We brought this along with some FEM calulations, and hey presto road legal as long as it's used by scientific staff. He even accpeted a Datron Correvit on the front bumper; but the car was only allowed to drive a top speed of 80km/h on public roads. He's probably been suspicious of that device for measuring sideways velocity.
I don't understand what that fastest Nordschleife lap fuss is all about, when it is compromised by modified cars, or those made in small numbers. Totally uninteresting IMHO. Now if someone set the rules to cars that had been made in numbers of at least a thousand; and the driving car should be identical to the other 999, then we'd been talking!
The German attitude to what a street car is differs from the UK because to be honest in the UK you can register pretty much anything - and if I can take a cheap shot - in 1994 Porsche used the Dauer brand to win GT1 at Le Mans and that was a 962!
I can't see the difference between this car and the Techart car that held the record a few years ago.
If you limit all record attempts to pure, volume produced standard road cars then all you'd have would be a heap of different drivers in 996 GT2's.
I can't see why people get so wound up about this type of car but think that Carrera GT, Zonda, Enzo, McLaren SLR - or any other half million Euro car - is fine..
I can't see the difference between this car and the Techart car that held the record a few years ago.
If you limit all record attempts to pure, volume produced standard road cars then all you'd have would be a heap of different drivers in 996 GT2's.
I can't see why people get so wound up about this type of car but think that Carrera GT, Zonda, Enzo, McLaren SLR - or any other half million Euro car - is fine..
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