Should race cars be banned from attending track days?

[Humour]

SpudLink said:

The events where it’s assumed everyone is there to test their setup prior to the race weekend. I don’t really object to race cars, but I do object to track days morphing into test days.

Agree. In my experience with those types involved it isn't so much that they are testing/shaking down, whatever. Its more the attitude of "I have a race to prepare for, therefore Im here on business. Where as the average joe is here to have fun and as such I take priority in my actions, they will have to understand/live with it" mentality.

Whether they are faster, or slower, no matter, what matters is courtesy and awareness (even if there) appears out of the window and this is frustrating!

On occasions forcing me to behave out of character and return serve in the ignorance stakes if an opportunity presents itself to make a point whilst knowing 99% of the time its a wasted effort.

Thats the whole argument imo, the business like behaviour is fine for a test/race day, you pay your moneys and all that. Track days are not that, so dont behave like they are.

JayK12 said:

Testing on a track day for lap timing should be banned as the driver and team are clearly pushing for times and this is where overtaking becomes sketchy.

Timing on TD's is not allowed, in my experience at least I haven't got the jist from the driving I've seen that this is the case. More a case of the the attitude and ignorance, that they belong there more than the Joe blogs on the same day....

[andrew_baran]

I was at Knockhill today. So were about half the field of Mini JCW Challenge cars. Almost exclusively driven in a way that perfectly summarises why this thread exists.

They were running in packs, racing each other. At one point in the day I was followed through the first sector, I yielded after the chicane before Clark after which the two Minis passed. One out-braked itself/put a wheel on the grass, the other car went for the inside (TRACKDAY, NOT RACE!) and he was in the gravel at Clark.
If he half-spun and came back across the track, that was potentially my car binned too. I went to talk to the marshall, he explained to me the two cars were team mates!! Why on earth they were pushing each other to the point of going off track is anyone's guess. I walked back to my car scratching my head, just planning on avoiding the carnage they were creating.

Race cars are fine on a track day. But they should not be allowed to run in formation with similar race cars. It's not a race, it's an R&D session. I have to drive my track car home, you have a lovely truck and trailer to put your now gravel filled POS into. I don't want your sponsor vinyls scraped into my paintwork either.

[227bhp]

They should run them in the old 3 x 20mins ph format and make sure they're all out together, that would solve a lot of issues.

[Arklight]

Am currently at Brands with OpenTrack, there is a fleet of euro NASCAR pickups plus some ginetta cars on with us. I would suggest race cars outnumber roadcars today.

But, it's quite a nice day. No one taking the pee in corners and braking zones.

Couple of the NASCARs needed a small reminder this morning it's not a test/race day but since then it's been great.

The only red flags of the day have been for what appears to be the same two blue Clio's playing find the gravel, they are both winning 😁

[jdmave]

Attended Goodwood track day last week and we couldn't have been made to feel more than welcome from all the staff at Goodwood and the other drivers both private and those using the sessions for preparation shakedown.

Brilliant time even though we were one of the slowest in our £900 steed (mk1 Audi tt roadster) and was half expecting to be getting a cab home.......it survived and didn't miss a heart beat....

The plan now is to try every UK circuit before venturing further afield if car continues.....


Ps.....The wife said sorry if she slowed anyone down but enjoyed all the banter

[Mrs Muttleysnoop]

Haven't read all 8 pages but for what it's worth, I did Bedford Autodrome on Monday in my everyday road car and the whole day was great, no red flag or stoppages that I'm aware of. One reason may be strict noise limit discourages race cars and length of track gives lots of room for everyone. So my conclusion is race cars and road cars do not mix on track. Race car drivers don't seem to be able to take their 'race heads' off on a track day.

[CABC]

Mrs Muttleysnoop said:

Haven't read all 8 pages but for what it's worth, I did Bedford Autodrome on Monday in my everyday road car and the whole day was great, no red flag or stoppages that I'm aware of. One reason may be strict noise limit discourages race cars and length of track gives lots of room for everyone. So my conclusion is race cars and road cars do not mix on track. Race car drivers don't seem to be able to take their 'race heads' off on a track day.

biggest factor is that Bedford isn't a racetrack though!

[ribiero]

Mrs Muttleysnoop said:

Haven't read all 8 pages but for what it's worth, I did Bedford Autodrome on Monday in my everyday road car and the whole day was great, no red flag or stoppages that I'm aware of. One reason may be strict noise limit discourages race cars and length of track gives lots of room for everyone. So my conclusion is race cars and road cars do not mix on track. Race car drivers don't seem to be able to take their 'race heads' off on a track day.

I think it's not a race track.. perhaps that also discourages race cars..

However when i was there in October there was a few other race cars there, including the ex btcc astra (with a brilliant buildthread here on PH) a locost and a few other production tin top like cars.

It's also a circuit that's pretty hard to get a red thrown on, brands and donny are easy because of the nature of the circuit.

A very important thing to consider... not everyone in a race car is there to test, some may well be there to learn the circuit, they may just use it as a track car, there for fun or there to let their mates have a go in their car.

You wont be troubled by these people, you may not even notice them, so dont tar them with the same brush, because it's just as easy/lazy to compare all road cars that turn up at trackdays with the weapons who turn up at Combe action days.

[VX BlackRat]

ribiero said:

I think it's not a race track.. perhaps that also discourages race cars..

However when i was there in October there was a few other race cars there, including the ex btcc astra (with a brilliant buildthread here on PH) a locost and a few other production tin top like cars.

It's also a circuit that's pretty hard to get a red thrown on, brands and donny are easy because of the nature of the circuit.

A very important thing to consider... not everyone in a race car is there to test, some may well be there to learn the circuit, they may just use it as a track car, there for fun or there to let their mates have a go in their car.

You wont be troubled by these people, you may not even notice them, so dont tar them with the same brush, because it's just as easy/lazy to compare all road cars that turn up at trackdays with the weapons who turn up at Combe action days.

Thanks Ribiero, Bedford was a great place to shakedown and learn the BTCC car. Got Donners booked 30th Nov, lap times are not the goal, having fun and giving everyone room to enjoy is.

[tvrfan007]

Steve H said:

Lets ban all French tat for starters, too unreliable and invariably driven by a "certain type".

I think that's the problem solved .

Cheeky! I don't see many other balding 30-something 306 drivers with less talent than the car can handle! I'm an engineer though, so generally bother to make sure my car works and is road legal!

I don't have an issue with the race cars getting there but I share the consensus that they account for most of the stoppages. Last day I did at donny was a rainy day, a Bentley race car in front of me dropped it in craner and destroyed more carbon fibre parts than my car is worth... On his first lap. It took the team longer to unload the car from their leviathan of a race truck than he was on track for. I often like to examine other machinery in the piss, and often ask for passenger laps. I was taken out in a race radical once and thoroughly enjoyed it.

The issue, as stated numerous times, is a lack of courtesy. Last time out I slowed for a spinner in front of me, only for a golf r to pass me on my inside when I wasn't expecting it (and finishing taking evasive) then hold me up repeatedly, because I didn't have the power to pass him on the straights but could brake about 100m later. Some people either don't use their mirrors, or simply refuse to yield for perceived inferior cars. I'm sure some do both.


Edit: also love bedford. Never had any drama there.

[rallycross]

tvrfan007 said:

Edit: also love bedford. Never had any drama there.

Bedford does not have this problem as its not a race circuit and no point taking your racing car there other than to run it in or have some fun with friends driving it, also the noise restriction makes it a pain in the neck for anything loud (good fun on the full circuit often go, but would never take my racing car there).

[JTN358AT]

I did a wet day at Oulton, just recently. A wild mix of novice and experienced track day drivers and race cars. The race cars ranged from MX5’s to GT3 Audi’s. Some of the race cars even had novice stickers on the back. One novice race car spun in front of me and nearly collected me. Another put it into the barrier and brought out the red flag. Later, the same novice race car collided with a novice marked Fiesta. The damage was savage and the organiser cut the day short with at least one person being taken to hospital. I hope that injuries were limited but I have never seen or heard of injuries on a car track day before. The race/road car mix worked very badly that day.

[HustleRussell]

nickfrog said:

Yes perhaps but the objective for race teams is testing and set up, not fun.

Is the driver’s ‘motive’ really a consideration or shall we just agree that there are considerately driven cars and inconsiderately driven cars

[CABC]

we might be in the last days of affordable track days. so for all the risks, let's enjoy it.
TDOs are small companies and not really able to properly manage the situation.
my prediction: either the tracks become more active in managing events (MSV run most of them) or a few incidents bring about significant change through liability & H&S costs. it's possible that TDs will cost several hundred pounds in a few years. i've seen a change in behaviour over the last 10 yrs and in today's society that can't continue without something else adjusting. A couple of high profile incidents will bring the spotlight and this is more likely now than 10 yrs ago.

[Leptons]

I’ve voted “No”.

I was made aware of this thread during the briefing at Oulton yesterday. I think there’s enough banned stuff in this country. In any case I don’t see how you could ever clearly differentiate between a Race car or Trackday car, to do so would require scruitineering on every car which we just don’t want. For one it would push the cost up for everyone and slow the day down.

I did notice a poster up yesterday with some test day dates and prices which were astronomical so that is probably where the problem lies. Does a test day really cost the circuit 4 X as much to run as a trackday? I think not...

[rallycross]

Leptons said:

I’ve voted “No

I did notice a poster up yesterday with some test day dates and prices which were astronomical so that is probably where the problem lies. Does a test day really cost the circuit 4 X as much to run as a trackday? I think not...

Yep test days tend to be very expensive compared to just using a track day.

[MRichards99]

rallycross said:

Leptons said:

I’ve voted “No

I did notice a poster up yesterday with some test day dates and prices which were astronomical so that is probably where the problem lies. Does a test day really cost the circuit 4 X as much to run as a trackday? I think not...

Yep test days tend to be very expensive compared to just using a track day.

I think the question being asked here is does it really need to be so much more expensive? I have no clue what the answer is, but what's provided at a test day that's not at a trackday?

[JTN358AT]

Is it just a better idea to redefine how test days are run? If teams want to fiddle with setup in an open pit lane environment would it not be better just to have GT, formula and historic racers mixing it on track with some track day style regulations?

Track days are becoming very expensive in the summer as race cars doing "cheap" testing squeeze out the road cars.

[Nickjd]

There is always a lot of confusion in this. As our American cousins like to say, it is not guns that kill people, but people. It is not race cars that are the issue, it is the drivers. How do you legislate for drivers? Every single person behind the wheel of a car on track has the ability to cause a red flag. If you take any time to look at social media, the rise of likes and "influencers" it would seem then that most people on track are now timing and chasing times. You really do not have to look very far at all to find Billy Clueless using Harry's Lap Timer trying to set a lap. Times that their mates have posted or that another "influencer" has. Showing how badly you can drive a hatchback with a big turbo bolted on to get a "good" time with lots of Fast and Furious wheel shaking gets lots of likes on Instagram which is how you measure esteem these days apparently. I have seen loads of videos taken from road cars making huge lunges and near misses on track days. The response almost always from the Fan Boi followers is that the car in front should not have dared to be in the way of the "superior car" and any negative commenters are resoundingly told to go and cry in their favorite Safe Space. The problem facing TDO's is how to control this because every single one will say "no timing" in their briefing, yet everyone driving thinks it is OK for them to do it and inevitably on the day, those challenged with bad driving deny it or say the other driver made them do it. Part of the problem or change is down to even "slow" cars are now rather quick and again back to social media and the internet, it takes but minutes for someone who is saying that they are going their first track day and any advice, to be recommended to fit slicks because "they are out of this world!" It is driving standards, not the type of car.
As for costs, it is not "race cars" driving up the price in the summer. The variance in cost between just a Wednesday and a Friday track hire (when most testing occurs) can be as high as £8,000 and the variance between a day in December and a weekend in the light months as much as £20,000 just in hire cost before vat. Gone are the days when you could rent a piece of tarmac for a few hundred pounds.

[nickfrog]

It's a combination of both, drivers attitude yes but also the car itself and the team behind it, whose objective will be business, not pleasure, unlike normal track day participants. Testing should be done on.... test days. Bit of a clue in the name.