Nurburgring - new lap record for a sham road car
Discussion
With Phil driving? He is a bit good......
Just to clarify my point, I meant the F1 would be better than the current crop of Mega cars like the CGT and Enzo.
A radical-esque car with big cojones would of course be in a different timezone entirely.
>> Edited by phatgixer on Monday 8th August 18:33
Just to clarify my point, I meant the F1 would be better than the current crop of Mega cars like the CGT and Enzo.
A radical-esque car with big cojones would of course be in a different timezone entirely.
>> Edited by phatgixer on Monday 8th August 18:33
p490kvp said:p490kvp,
I think Norman Simon drove the car - and fair play. Everyone moans about what does or does not make a road car but lets be honest the car looks perfectly capable of being driven on road and I'm sure it costs a great deal less than a Carrera GT, Zonda or Enzo so whats the problem?
Surely the good thing is that more people are stepping up to the plate to make fast laps?
I'm with Hammerwerfer on this one.
If the car was "perfectly capable of being driven on road" then surely Porsche would have offered it for sale as such - there would have been plenty of potential buyers. The fact that it was built without the numerous compromises that are required (by law or by custom) in a road car has much to do with why it was able to do a 7:15 in the first place. It doesn't make sense to compare it with road cars in a way that flatters it (lap time) while in many other areas the car has major shortcomings that true road cars easily overcome.
This car belongs to a category that is not "Road Car". At least as recently as the early '70s Formula One cars were occasionally driven on public roads for brief tests or to simplify transit from a temporary village garage to a paddock. Indeed Formula One cars even today are driven on public roads in Monte Carlo. Nevertheless these were/are hardly "road cars".
I don't think we know how much the Edo car would have cost, but I believe that a new RSR was about 175 sterling, and with a turbo it surely would have been over 200 - considerably less than the cars that you mention, but still considerably expensive.
This car is simply a silhouette of a road car, which doesn't make it any more of a road car than a DTM car is. The fact that it was on road tyres means nothing more than that. Now Edo's got the record for the fastest lap done by a race car on road tyres - so what? I've got the record for the fastest lap by someone with the user name Flemke, but I don't think that anybody particularly cares about that, nor about lap times for race cars on road tyres.
If you ask me - and with no disrespect to your superb and courageous achievement - the two meaningful lap records are 6:11 and 7:32.
Cheers.
(ps: I believe he's Patrick Simon.)
naja, aber zu viele Kochs in der Kuche... eh bringst mir ein Bier, bitte. prost!
what kind of V8 barge was this? more info online?
I find it interesting, how EDO makes use of this rekord. Right now all they're saying is that the WANT to beat the Donky's time:
Kurt,
Es wird nichts so heiß gegessen, wie es gekocht wird - With a bit time and effort, you can get many things through with the TÜV...quote]
what kind of V8 barge was this? more info online?
I find it interesting, how EDO makes use of this rekord. Right now all they're saying is that the WANT to beat the Donky's time:
edo-competition.net said:
Seit neun Monaten hält der amtierende Rekordhalter Michael Düchting auf einem strassenzugelassenen Donkervoort RS die aktuelle Bestzeit von 7.18.01 Min. edo competition will diese Zeit auf der 20,832 km langen Strecke in der "Grünen Hölle" unterbieten.
[/edo-competition.net]
[quote=Bodo]
[quote=kedelbach]There must be a Herr or Frau Edo working at high levels in the TÜV offices to get those things road registered!
Kurt
Kurt,
Es wird nichts so heiß gegessen, wie es gekocht wird - With a bit time and effort, you can get many things through with the TÜV...quote]
phatgixer said:Well, at least, that's what his web site says
With Phil driving? He is a bit good......
Seriously though, yes, agreed.
phatgixer said:
Just to clarify my point, I meant the F1 would be better than the current crop of Mega cars like the CGT and Enzo.
No, apparently not. The CGT has some half-decent aero - the F1 has not. An F1 with the high downforce mods would be a bit better - but still not a Ring thing. And then there's modern tyres, etc.
Yeah we are in total agreement re: Bellof's 6m 11s and of course the Carrera GT lap is also great.
The problem with a very strict classification of what a road car is means that firstly there is very little competition both in terms of drivers and marques.
Currently Porsche is the only volume manufactuer making cars that are both quick enough and strong enough for the 'Ring and so that restricts interest.
Secondly if you take a Carrera GT as being the current best of "true" road cars then who is to say Walter Rohrl or the Sport Auto ed is the best man for the job? Kaufmann, myself, Uwe Alzen, etc, etc would need access to the half million Euro car before we could stake a claim.
Personally the title of any record is irrelevant and I think that most do it for the fun of doing it rather than any financial or glory.
The point is a record for any car on street tyres is worth something because I don't think the time would be lower if you did use a 1970's F1 car. Certainly if you look to the last 1000kms race when Bellof did his 6m 11s the next quickest car was the Ickx car at 6m 30s and the Lancia C1 car was over 6m 40s. This with ground effect, 900bhp and slicks.
The problem with a very strict classification of what a road car is means that firstly there is very little competition both in terms of drivers and marques.
Currently Porsche is the only volume manufactuer making cars that are both quick enough and strong enough for the 'Ring and so that restricts interest.
Secondly if you take a Carrera GT as being the current best of "true" road cars then who is to say Walter Rohrl or the Sport Auto ed is the best man for the job? Kaufmann, myself, Uwe Alzen, etc, etc would need access to the half million Euro car before we could stake a claim.
Personally the title of any record is irrelevant and I think that most do it for the fun of doing it rather than any financial or glory.
The point is a record for any car on street tyres is worth something because I don't think the time would be lower if you did use a 1970's F1 car. Certainly if you look to the last 1000kms race when Bellof did his 6m 11s the next quickest car was the Ickx car at 6m 30s and the Lancia C1 car was over 6m 40s. This with ground effect, 900bhp and slicks.
joe911 said:I guarantee that a standard F1 wouldn't come close to the laptime of a CGT or Enzo (well, I'm assuming that the Enzo could do a full lap without breaking down).
McLaren F1 would still be the daddy, surely?
No. Est. lap time for the F1 is about 7:35 I seem to remember - Flemke?
There are three things that would hold back the F1:
- its tyres, which were designed a decade ago, are, by current standards, crap,
- it has much less downforce (if any) than the other two, and
- its standard suspension is, shall we say, problematical.
On the GTR race cars all three of these areas were addressed. Even amongst the GTRs, the long-tail race car of '97, which was the fastest variation of the F1, could not keep up with the Porsche GT1. Then consider that the CGT was originally going to be the race car that superseded the GT1.
As I say, the tyre and aero issues are overwhelming.
My guess is that a bog-standard F1 road car on Pilot Sports in the hands of a Ringmeister would do...maybe a touch under 8, and that would be one scary ride.
My guess is that the long-tail racer on modern slicks would do maybe 6:40 (in the context that the record for mortals was Ickx's 6:25).
nords said:
Flemke,
How about one of the five Le Mans Macca specials? Less top end but better thru' the gears acceleration and downforce....? Modern tyres and a re-worked brake system and it could be better than the CGT?
Well...
The LMs were a bit heavier than the '95 race cars but they had more powerful engines. Aero-wise they appear to be quite similar, although I couldn't say how effective their aero package was, but there is no way that it was as effective as the '97 long-tail race car's was.
I am fairly confident that the LM's suspension is not adjustable, unlike the race car's. That is definitely a problem.
The LMs had iron brake rotors and fairly heavy aluminium wheels. You could get more-modern tyres for their 18" wheels, whereas with the standard road cars you're stuck with the older design because the spec is unique (315/45/17/Z at the rear).
So, with more modern tyres it definitely would be quicker than the standard F1 road car. In relation to the CGT (or the red cheese wedge), the LM has a considerably better power/weight ratio, less good brakes, an inferior suspension and what is quite likely to be inferior aerodynamics. Let's call it even with tyres.
I believe that the LM's top speed with all that drag is in the 210 range - as you say, not a limiting factor in this case.
The 'Ring is much more of a handling/aero circuit than it is a power circuit, so my money would have to be on the modern cars - by 5-10 seconds.
By the way, if you'd like another possible reference point, the Ringmeister who's been developing my car expects that after its suspension has been substantially reworked and its brakes replaced, and it's got modern tyres, it should be in the 7:45-7:50 range. And no, I'm not going to see if he's right.
>> Edited by flemke on Monday 8th August 22:58
flemke said:
PS Pirelli make a 355/25/19 PZero Rosso Asymmetrico
Guy,
Are they intended for a particular car, or are they meant to attract someone who would run 345s as standard but is hoping for an edge?
They are standard on a Saleen S7. They are also used in the aftermarket by some Lambo, Viper and Corvette owners. They are listed in tirerack.com, which is a great source for tyre (or tire
)information.Ive heard of Norbert Simon but not Patrick Simon. FWIW, I was fortunate enough to be a guest of DPR and the Harrods/Bscher team at the '95 Le Mans race (oh so close, so close....) and it's no understatement to say that the 95 aero package was errr - not quite as well integrated as the package that Murray developed for the car once McLaren realised that they could actually win races in the thing!
Gordon Murray - a man that I don't think we've heard the end of..... ;-)
Gordon Murray - a man that I don't think we've heard the end of..... ;-)
flemke said:
[quote=nords]Flemke,
By the way, if you'd like another possible reference point, the Ringmeister who's been developing my car expects that after its suspension has been substantially reworked and its brakes replaced, and it's got modern tyres, it should be in the 7:45-7:50 range. And no, I'm not going to see if he's right.
>> Edited by flemke on Monday 8th August 22:58
I have been meaning to ask how the modifications have been progressing, but a suitable opportunity had not arisen. Apologies for this somewhat off topic request.
Regards
R2TR
race2the redline said:Suspension is finished, tyres fitted but to temporary 2-piece BBS wheels. The car is much better.
I have been meaning to ask how the modifications have been progressing, but a suitable opportunity had not arisen.
Regards
R2TR
We have been waiting (as in, "forever"
for BBS to get back to us with a proposal for mag wheels that would replicate the originals but in the bigger size. Have also begun discussions with two other places that claim to be able to produce bespoke mag wheels. After the wheels are sorted we'll work on the brakes, although I may wait on that because it seems that the industry is working on several braking systems that would be superior to traditional iron rotors. No sense in slapping on something now if there will be an important technological step forward in the near future.
flemke said:
I have been meaning to ask how the modifications have been progressing, but a suitable opportunity had not arisen.
Regards
R2TR
Suspension is finished, tyres fitted but to temporary 2-piece BBS wheels. The car is much better.
We have been waiting (as in, "forever"
After the wheels are sorted we'll work on the brakes, although I may wait on that because it seems that the industry is working on several braking systems that would be superior to traditional iron rotors. No sense in slapping on something now if there will be an important technological step forward in the near future.
Flemke
Thanks for your reply, im positive I will not be the only member interested in your progress. With regards to the brakes; I believed you were looking at a Carbon/Ceramic solution?
Regards
R2TR
R2TR,
For brakes, there are three possibilities of which I am aware:
- the carbon-ceramics that are now in their third generation and fairly well sorted. I reckon that I would save about 1.5kg/wheel relative to what's on the car now, maybe 2. This would be the simplest option.
- the Delphi "dual-rotor" system which is like a pair of bike rotors and one caliper with maybe an inch of space between them (the rotors), which are scheduled to be in production next year, and
- a system that is being developed by a chap I know which consists of solid carbon pads and rotors which have a special treatment to get over the low-temp coefficient of friction problem.
As the last two options have some promise, but I would be crazy to use either until it is more developed, it may make sense to be patient, despite the fact that by this point I am very impatient.
nords,
The car looks the same as it has done (pictures of which have been on PH a few times) except that at the moment it is bearing 19" BBS two-piece wheels which, with their gold centres and polished ally rims, look pretty awful.
For brakes, there are three possibilities of which I am aware:
- the carbon-ceramics that are now in their third generation and fairly well sorted. I reckon that I would save about 1.5kg/wheel relative to what's on the car now, maybe 2. This would be the simplest option.
- the Delphi "dual-rotor" system which is like a pair of bike rotors and one caliper with maybe an inch of space between them (the rotors), which are scheduled to be in production next year, and
- a system that is being developed by a chap I know which consists of solid carbon pads and rotors which have a special treatment to get over the low-temp coefficient of friction problem.
As the last two options have some promise, but I would be crazy to use either until it is more developed, it may make sense to be patient, despite the fact that by this point I am very impatient.
nords,
The car looks the same as it has done (pictures of which have been on PH a few times) except that at the moment it is bearing 19" BBS two-piece wheels which, with their gold centres and polished ally rims, look pretty awful.
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