Evo's 8 minute crack at the Ring
Discussion
Actually I'm well aware of the difference having driven flying laps of the Ring
Gav's time was BTG and it was his second lap now that I think about it. The fact that he was following someone is of little relevance really as within a short time Gav would be down to this time on his own.
What I did assume was that the EVO M3 8 minute target was for a BTG lap as well. September's EVO doesn't make it clear that I could see anyway.
davyboy said:
You mixing up BTG and full lap times.
about 25 - 30 secs between the 2 different timing points.
Gaving Kershaw was also following Smoking Joe Winklehock......
While that is true, one assumes that EVO aren't using Mrs Miggins as their driver of the M3...
fergus said:
cortell said:
Gavan Kershaw (Lotus driving guru and racer)
.... driving guru and racer... QED! I don't think he can be classed in the same sentence as Mrs.Miggins in her 330hp scooby (i.e. other 'Ring 'heroes').....
>> Edited by cortell on Tuesday 20th September 15:01
I think it'd count as a bit weaselly if they did move the goalposts like that to a 8min BTG target.
8:24 for a full lap is a second quicker than a stock Evo VII and two seconds faster than a Nissan 350Z, so that sounds quite slow. Dirk is an astonishing driver so there should be more to come from that car.
8:24 for a full lap is a second quicker than a stock Evo VII and two seconds faster than a Nissan 350Z, so that sounds quite slow. Dirk is an astonishing driver so there should be more to come from that car.
I think you'll find that evo's objective was a full lap. The bog-standard factory production model is alleged to have done 8:36, so that (if true) would make it reasonable for someone to aim for 8 dead in a modified version on better tyres.
With respect to the comment that "the fact that he {Kershaw) was following someone is of little relevance", to the contrary, it is of enormous relevance.
The reason that great drivers can be pretty much on the pace at a new (normal) circuit after only a few laps is that they can usually see what's ahead and adjust for it, and what's ahead is fairly straightforward anyhow.
In many places on the NS you cannot see what's ahead, what's ahead is often not straightforward, and the lap is too long and complex to memorise quickly.
This is precisely why the circuit is uniquely challenging. When you yourself are a pro following another pro's turn-in points, brake points, accelerations into blind crests, etc., most of the worst of it is made easy for you.
Do you really think that you could send even a great driver out there and on his second-ever lap he could be within a few seconds of the pace? Back when the German GP was run on the old circuit, prior to a race even Stewart and Clark would hire a road car and do public laps to re-familiarise themselves.
With respect to the comment that "the fact that he {Kershaw) was following someone is of little relevance", to the contrary, it is of enormous relevance.
The reason that great drivers can be pretty much on the pace at a new (normal) circuit after only a few laps is that they can usually see what's ahead and adjust for it, and what's ahead is fairly straightforward anyhow.
In many places on the NS you cannot see what's ahead, what's ahead is often not straightforward, and the lap is too long and complex to memorise quickly.
This is precisely why the circuit is uniquely challenging. When you yourself are a pro following another pro's turn-in points, brake points, accelerations into blind crests, etc., most of the worst of it is made easy for you.
Do you really think that you could send even a great driver out there and on his second-ever lap he could be within a few seconds of the pace? Back when the German GP was run on the old circuit, prior to a race even Stewart and Clark would hire a road car and do public laps to re-familiarise themselves.
I've been going for 6 years so know my way around a bit.
I've witnessed a Scooby driver (in an old estate version that was only mildly modified) do 8.30 something BTG on his 6th lap. I was there when he did it and I've seen the video. On the other thread about Ring times there was some discussion and a link to a video about a young guy that did 8.40 something on his 5th lap in a Pug 205 Gti with an Mi16 engine and his lines were shocking. So, given Gav's ability as a wheel twirler I've no doubt he could very quickly get down to 8.30 on his own after a few hot laps with Smoking Jo. Even I was down to 9 minutes and a few seconds after my fist weekend there without following anyone and I am a mere mortal.
I've sat beside some truly exceptional drivers over the years. Their ability behind the wheel and the speed they can carry through the corners on an unfamiliar road is other wordly.
flemke said:
I think you'll find that evo's objective was a full lap. The bog-standard factory production model is alleged to have done 8:36, so that (if true) would make it reasonable for someone to aim for 8 dead in a modified version on better tyres.
With respect to the comment that "the fact that he {Kershaw) was following someone is of little relevance", to the contrary, it is of enormous relevance.
The reason that great drivers can be pretty much on the pace at a new (normal) circuit after only a few laps is that they can usually see what's ahead and adjust for it, and what's ahead is fairly straightforward anyhow.
In many places on the NS you cannot see what's ahead, what's ahead is often not straightforward, and the lap is too long and complex to memorise quickly.
This is precisely why the circuit is uniquely challenging. When you yourself are a pro following another pro's turn-in points, brake points, accelerations into blind crests, etc., most of the worst of it is made easy for you.
Do you really think that you could send even a great driver out there and on his second-ever lap he could be within a few seconds of the pace? Back when the German GP was run on the old circuit, prior to a race even Stewart and Clark would hire a road car and do public laps to re-familiarise themselves.
cortell said:I cannot comment on your personal experience, cortell - everything you say could be true (apart from the contention that it was hardly relevant to Kershaw's time on his second-ever lap that he was being guided by Winkelhock. My reply to that is above.)
I've been going for 6 years so know my way around a bit.
I've witnessed a Scooby driver (in an old estate version that was only mildly modified) do 8.30 something BTG on his 6th lap. I was there when he did it and I've seen the video. On the other thread about Ring times there was some discussion and a link to a video about a young guy that did 8.40 something on his 5th lap in a Pug 205 Gti with an Mi16 engine and his lines were shocking. So, given Gav's ability as a wheel twirler I've no doubt he could very quickly get down to 8.30 on his own after a few hot laps with Smoking Jo. Even I was down to 9 minutes and a few seconds after my fist weekend there without following anyone and I am a mere mortal.
I've sat beside some truly exceptional drivers over the years. Their ability behind the wheel and the speed they can carry through the corners on an unfamiliar road is other wordly.
What I am bound to say regarding people's claims for their laps at the Ring is that some of them talk German, some talk Flemish, and some talk English, but many of them talk bo11ocks.
Someone I know well normally does 8:10-8:20 public laps (BTG) and he has not been overtaken once in his last 100+ public laps. That's not super-quick, and it makes one wonder when it is that all these supposedly fast guys do their driving.
Cheers.
flemke said:
regarding people's claims for their laps at the Ring is that some of them talk German, some talk Flemish, and some talk English, but many of them talk bo11ocks.
Someone I know well normally does 8:10-8:20 public laps (BTG) and he has not been overtaken once in his last 100+ public laps. That's not super-quick, and it makes one wonder when it is that all these supposedly fast guys do their driving
Agreed. There does appear to be a proliferation of budding Stefan Rosers out there, who would be far better employed as test drivers, as their 6-10 laps have allowed them to get on a par with test drivers/VLN veterans, etc who have often completed >10000 laps. Think of the cost savings that could be gained by the manufacturers by employing some TF scooby drivers. 
nords said:Good point.
Steady guys, you have to remember this guys have countless sub 6 min laps on their PS2 so respect please!
Hey, people who have done 8-something BTG know what the score is, let the others have their fun!
Have I mentioned how I used to beat Brundle and Senna in F3? After that I couldn't be bothered to take things further - it just wasn't challenging enough.
You are missing my point. The fact is that Gav did 8.30 with help on his second lap. Had he not followed smoking Jo he would have still got to 8.30 but it would have taken longer and by most folks standards longer would still have equated to a small number of laps.
I agree there is a lot of pub talk about lap times. However, the Scooby video is out there if you look as is the Pug 205 video (the link is on another thread on here) Neither of which is bollox and neither of them are professional drivers hence the reason I can be confident that Gav could do 8.30 on his own in a small number of laps given his ability. Which was the only point I was really trying to make.
If you like I can send you a video of an Elise S2 (with Honda engine) doing 8.09 BTG. Edited to say that I've just watched that video again and it was 8.09 with some hold ups along the way. As I understand it the driver is a racing driver, first time out in the car with not a lot of Ring experience.
flemke said:
I cannot comment on your personal experience, cortell - everything you say could be true (apart from the contention that it was hardly relevant to Kershaw's time on his second-ever lap that he was being guided by Winkelhock. My reply to that is above.)
What I am bound to say regarding people's claims for their laps at the Ring is that some of them talk German, some talk Flemish, and some talk English, but many of them talk bo11ocks.
Someone I know well normally does 8:10-8:20 public laps (BTG) and he has not been overtaken once in his last 100+ public laps. That's not super-quick, and it makes one wonder when it is that all these supposedly fast guys do their driving.
Cheers.[/quote]
>> Edited by cortell on Tuesday 20th September 22:53
Anything is possible.
Another anecdote that I can vouch for because I witnessed the whole thing:
At a VLN race there was a team which included two chaps who race on the same team in ALMS and ELMS. In other words, these guys are serious drivers.
Driver A had driven at the NS a lot; Driver B had never seen it before.
Neither had ever driven the particular kind of car they would be driving in this race.
In his first lap A was on pretty much on the pace. By the third he was exactly on it.
In his first lap as a driver, amongst other cars and having the opportunity to follow loads of drivers that knew the line exactly, and after he had also been my passenger (okay, maybe that was a disadvantage), Driver B was 1:40 off the pace.
As I said, Driver B is a seriously capable driver.
After about ten practice laps and another dozen race laps - again, every one driven amongst a lot of other cars whose example he could follow - Driver B was down to 40 seconds off the times of Driver A.
Experiences like this are what make me sceptical when I hear about the wonderlaps that people claim to put in on their first trip to the 'Ring.
Another anecdote that I can vouch for because I witnessed the whole thing:
At a VLN race there was a team which included two chaps who race on the same team in ALMS and ELMS. In other words, these guys are serious drivers.
Driver A had driven at the NS a lot; Driver B had never seen it before.
Neither had ever driven the particular kind of car they would be driving in this race.
In his first lap A was on pretty much on the pace. By the third he was exactly on it.
In his first lap as a driver, amongst other cars and having the opportunity to follow loads of drivers that knew the line exactly, and after he had also been my passenger (okay, maybe that was a disadvantage), Driver B was 1:40 off the pace.
As I said, Driver B is a seriously capable driver.
After about ten practice laps and another dozen race laps - again, every one driven amongst a lot of other cars whose example he could follow - Driver B was down to 40 seconds off the times of Driver A.
Experiences like this are what make me sceptical when I hear about the wonderlaps that people claim to put in on their first trip to the 'Ring.
I'd have thought following someone else around the ring was probably the most dangerous thing a newbie can do UNLESS the person they are following is aware that its a "ducks and drakes thing!..." My point is you cant gain the talent of the man in front of you by simply following him!...
I once made the mistake of following a friend in his GT3 MR down the foxhole and I very nearly came a croper at the top... it was as close to a "playstation moment" I'd ever want to get.
I once made the mistake of following a friend in his GT3 MR down the foxhole and I very nearly came a croper at the top... it was as close to a "playstation moment" I'd ever want to get.
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