Cost of track days

[C70R]

xjay1337 said:

The main thing that wears tyres I've found is excessive slip IE pushing through understeer etc.

Absolutely this. It's a weird 'badge of honour' thing.

I can't fathom how the "my new tyres were bald by lunchtime" brigade haven't spotted that they, driving at 110%, are barely going any quicker than those of us who can go round at 90% and manage road tyres.

[xjay1337]

nickfrog said:

xjay1337 said:

The main thing that wears tyres I've found is excessive slip IE pushing through understeer etc.

The two main things that wear road tyres on track is overheating them above their (low) optimum temp range (which indeed can lead to too much slip which compounds the issue, pun intended) and how soft a road carcass is which leads to outer wear at the front, although neither are often an issue on a first track day. The huge majority of people on track days who want a step up and longer stints use semis for more thermal stability (typically a 8-10 lap plateau), hence my recommendation when I read about the PS3 which was a touring tyre that was even less "sporty" than a PS2.
Semis both offer a stiffer carcass and a more resilient compound at higher temps for longer and switching changes the experience significantly and also removes the need for too much camber, which is not always desirable for road use.

I'd rather have 1 set of tyres I can use on the road and on track and compromise with camber and alignment, than switch to semis which are ste on the road for the most part and certainly pretty crap in the wet by all accounts.

Some people might like the whole "semi slicks all year round" but my Scirocco I used ad08R (i went through 6 tyres) and they were fine on that as it wasn't a daily but no way I'd be using them on the road in normal driving conditions and certainly not in the wet if avoidable.

For me and my car I tend to do 5 or 6 "fast laps" and come in before my oil temps get too high and I also begin to lose concentration and make little mistakes myself even as a reasonably experienced track dayer.



I think if you want to have 2 sets of wheels and swap them for track days then they absolutely make sense but most people only have 1 car and 1 set of wheels so that's where the compromise is . I had a set of Cup 2s and sold them for that reason.

In my personal experience on my car and driving style i find that high performance road tyres do last well if you bear in mind they're not a race tyre and you're not a racing driver


ps4 225 40 18 (front)
Ran at approx 35psi hot (around 27psi cold)

After 3 full track days , 1 evening and 6000 road miles as pictured below

Alignment - negative 2.7 degree camber (fine on the road). Aimed for 0.00 toe.

[nickfrog]

xjay1337 said:

nickfrog said:

xjay1337 said:

The main thing that wears tyres I've found is excessive slip IE pushing through understeer etc.

The two main things that wear road tyres on track is overheating them above their (low) optimum temp range (which indeed can lead to too much slip which compounds the issue, pun intended) and how soft a road carcass is which leads to outer wear at the front, although neither are often an issue on a first track day. The huge majority of people on track days who want a step up and longer stints use semis for more thermal stability (typically a 8-10 lap plateau), hence my recommendation when I read about the PS3 which was a touring tyre that was even less "sporty" than a PS2.
Semis both offer a stiffer carcass and a more resilient compound at higher temps for longer and switching changes the experience significantly and also removes the need for too much camber, which is not always desirable for road use.

I'd rather have 1 set of tyres I can use on the road and on track and compromise with camber and alignment, than switch to semis which are ste on the road for the most part and certainly pretty crap in the wet by all accounts.

Some people might like the whole "semi slicks all year round" but my Scirocco I used ad08R (i went through 6 tyres) and they were fine on that as it wasn't a daily but no way I'd be using them on the road in normal driving conditions and certainly not in the wet if avoidable.

For me and my car I tend to do 5 or 6 "fast laps" and come in before my oil temps get too high and I also begin to lose concentration and make little mistakes myself even as a reasonably experienced track dayer.



I think if you want to have 2 sets of wheels and swap them for track days then they absolutely make sense but most people only have 1 car and 1 set of wheels so that's where the compromise is . I had a set of Cup 2s and sold them for that reason.

In my personal experience on my car and driving style i find that high performance road tyres do last well if you bear in mind they're not a race tyre and you're not a racing driver


ps4 225 40 18 (front)
Ran at approx 35psi hot (around 27psi cold)

After 3 full track days , 1 evening and 6000 road miles as pictured below

Alignment - negative 2.7 degree camber (fine on the road)

I went the other way. I used to manage road tyre temp on track including on the M135i. And then switched to AD08Rs for road (where they are brilliant) and track and that works better for me. Longer stints, better thermal stability so you don't really have to look at temp when you know what pressure works. I certainly prefer that than to run almost 3deg on the road.

[QBee]

Each to their own.
I am with Nickfrog's way of thinking.
I take my TVR on track and prefer the fit and forget nature of dedicated track tyres.

I have tried a variety over the years, but currently have a set of Toyo R888r for when I want to drive to the track as well as on it, and a set of ex-Clio Cup slicks for when I can be bothered to use the trailer. Both sets of tyres are mounted on sets of cheap wheels - the TVR takes 4 stud Ford fit wheels, so plenty of choice. Generally I use the trailer for the further away tracks, as it would be a pain to get home if the car is goosed 200 miles from home.

I run 1 degree negative camber, which suits the car on both road and track.
I have to add that I am not short of secure space for storing everything.

[xjay1337]

nickfrog said:

I went the other way. I used to manage road tyre temp on track including on the M135i. And then switched to AD08Rs for road (where they are brilliant) and track and that works better for me. Longer stints, better thermal stability so you don't really have to look at temp when you know what pressure works. I certainly prefer that than to run almost 3deg on the road.

Fair enough - whatever works for you

I've done over 25k with the camber - it's really not a problem, not sure what the hang up is. Even my Mrs can drive it without issues or noticing anything up.

[nickfrog]

xjay1337 said:

Fair enough - whatever works for you

I've done over 25k with the camber - it's really not a problem, not sure what the hang up is. Even my Mrs can drive it without issues or noticing anything up.

No hang ups whatsoever, why? Just preference. Camber only works under load, the more you have the less front end grip if you don't transfer enough weight. Plus it's always going to increase braking distances. That doesn't mean that you notice or may not be an issue. I prefer to have less on the road and also prefer semis on track so it's a win win for me.

[anonymous-user]

I have found AD08R's fine in the wet on track and on roads, better than my Michelin Cup 2s. Any of these tyres are decent in track and fine on roads if driving to the conditions.

Road tyres quickly get eaten on track.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 4th September 05:59

[nickfrog]

Elatino1 said:

I have found AD08R's fine in the wet on track and on roads, better than my Michelin Cup 2s. Any of these tyres are decent in track and f8ne on roads if driving to the conditions.

Road tyres quickly get eaten on track.

+1. They're not designed/optimised for that function. The Yokis by contrast are far more versatile, despite not being optimised for the road.

[xjay1337]

Elatino1 said:

I have found AD08R's fine in the wet on track and on roads, better than my Michelin Cup 2s. Any of these tyres are decent in track and f8ne on roads if driving to the conditions.

Road tyres quickly get eaten on track.

I don't think that "driving to the conditions" is an acceptable excuse.

You never know when you might be at a safe distance of say 3 seconds on the motorway, you might be momentarily distracted , and then be in an emergency braking situation.

I went directly from PS4 to AD08R on my Scirocco, and in the wet I would call them borderline dangerous at anything other than very sedate speeds.

I did a sopping wet trackday at Snetterton and they were awful, I was getting wheel spin in 5th gear and it was very sketchy in the wet. The car was really decent in the wet, with suitable tyres. The PS4's were excellent and it was almost like doing a dry day - the car and the modifications meant it had no issue putting power down.

As I have shown with suitable driving ability, pressures and a bit of mechanical sympathy (and, in some cases some alignment adjustments) you can get a lot of trackdays done on "normal road tyres" without excessive wear.

I guess it's a badge of honour to turn up at the pub with SEMI SLICKS though... !

I fully support semi slicks on secondary wheels but to use every day they are stupid.

[QBee]

I second that sentiment.

I took my wife to a Cadwell Park track day and she passengered (she never gets car sick because she is deaf).
Her only comment was that she was wearing the wrong coloured trousers.

As it is only an hour from our house i drove to the track on Toyo R888s, no problem.
As we left the track to come home the heavens opened, biblical proportions.
The last 10 miles, at 30-40 mph on a river strewn A46 dual carriageway, in a 1100 kg rear wheel drive TVR, were alarming to put it mildly.
No grip whatsoever, and traffic barrelling past us at scary speeds. My wife was more scared than she had been all day on track at 120mph+.

[mmm-five]

I remember following a GT3 RS off the ferry at Dover and then quickly overtaking him as he struggled (visibly squirming) on the climb up the A2 as the rain started bucketing down causing rivulets across & down the road.

Had seen him at the Ring over the weekend, and think he must have used all of the tread on his Cup-2R at the Ring (I was on lowly Supersports).

[C70R]

xjay1337 said:

I don't think that "driving to the conditions" is an acceptable excuse.

You never know when you might be at a safe distance of say 3 seconds on the motorway, you might be momentarily distracted , and then be in an emergency braking situation.

I went directly from PS4 to AD08R on my Scirocco, and in the wet I would call them borderline dangerous at anything other than very sedate speeds.

I did a sopping wet trackday at Snetterton and they were awful, I was getting wheel spin in 5th gear and it was very sketchy in the wet. The car was really decent in the wet, with suitable tyres. The PS4's were excellent and it was almost like doing a dry day - the car and the modifications meant it had no issue putting power down.

As I have shown with suitable driving ability, pressures and a bit of mechanical sympathy (and, in some cases some alignment adjustments) you can get a lot of trackdays done on "normal road tyres" without excessive wear.

I guess it's a badge of honour to turn up at the pub with SEMI SLICKS though... !

I fully support semi slicks on secondary wheels but to use every day they are stupid.

Agree with pretty much all of this. I don't want to be a hero - I want a car I can use all the time.

[JayK12]

nickfrog said:

xjay1337 said:

nickfrog said:

xjay1337 said:

The main thing that wears tyres I've found is excessive slip IE pushing through understeer etc.

The two main things that wear road tyres on track is overheating them above their (low) optimum temp range (which indeed can lead to too much slip which compounds the issue, pun intended) and how soft a road carcass is which leads to outer wear at the front, although neither are often an issue on a first track day. The huge majority of people on track days who want a step up and longer stints use semis for more thermal stability (typically a 8-10 lap plateau), hence my recommendation when I read about the PS3 which was a touring tyre that was even less "sporty" than a PS2.
Semis both offer a stiffer carcass and a more resilient compound at higher temps for longer and switching changes the experience significantly and also removes the need for too much camber, which is not always desirable for road use.

I'd rather have 1 set of tyres I can use on the road and on track and compromise with camber and alignment, than switch to semis which are ste on the road for the most part and certainly pretty crap in the wet by all accounts.

Some people might like the whole "semi slicks all year round" but my Scirocco I used ad08R (i went through 6 tyres) and they were fine on that as it wasn't a daily but no way I'd be using them on the road in normal driving conditions and certainly not in the wet if avoidable.

For me and my car I tend to do 5 or 6 "fast laps" and come in before my oil temps get too high and I also begin to lose concentration and make little mistakes myself even as a reasonably experienced track dayer.



I think if you want to have 2 sets of wheels and swap them for track days then they absolutely make sense but most people only have 1 car and 1 set of wheels so that's where the compromise is . I had a set of Cup 2s and sold them for that reason.

In my personal experience on my car and driving style i find that high performance road tyres do last well if you bear in mind they're not a race tyre and you're not a racing driver


ps4 225 40 18 (front)
Ran at approx 35psi hot (around 27psi cold)

After 3 full track days , 1 evening and 6000 road miles as pictured below

Alignment - negative 2.7 degree camber (fine on the road)

I went the other way. I used to manage road tyre temp on track including on the M135i. And then switched to AD08Rs for road (where they are brilliant) and track and that works better for me. Longer stints, better thermal stability so you don't really have to look at temp when you know what pressure works. I certainly prefer that than to run almost 3deg on the road.

Yeah I went this way before i started running dedicated track/race cars. AD08R is a good road tyre, I ran R888s on the road when i was younger, only downside was every 3 months changing the fronts due to wear. Road tyres on track are toilet.

[anonymous-user]

Surprised some of you struggle so much in roads with semi slicks. I drove home from Donington with R888Rs on their way out and it absolutely bucketed it down on the M40 for 45mins, at no point did I feel unsafe deapite all sorts of atanding water.

The comment of being cool "turning up to the pub with semi slicks" is just plain stupid, I don't even go to the pub, I just don't want the hassle of swapping wheels over for track days and find road tyres (yes Micheline ps4s) are crap on tracks whereby semi's (which are totally road legal) fine on the road if you don't push it hard when you shouldn't.

[nickfrog]

xjay1337 said:

I guess it's a badge of honour to turn up at the pub with SEMI SLICKS though...

I think you're judging others by your own standards. Personnnaly I don't go to pubs so I wouldn't even know what to turn up with.

xjay1337 said:

I fully support semi slicks on secondary wheels but to use every day they are stupid.

Not at all. An AD08r starts at 8mm and is designed to be used every day on the road as well as on track. Nothing prevents anyone from running them in alternance with winters from say Nov to March. I have done exactly that. On secondary wheels I would run something more focused than a AD08r semi. Plenty of shades of grey.
It's a bit like if I said it's stupid to choose a diesel or an auto for track days. Both might work very well.

[xjay1337]

nickfrog said:

xjay1337 said:

I guess it's a badge of honour to turn up at the pub with SEMI SLICKS though...

I think you're judging others by your own standards. Personnnaly I don't go to pubs so I wouldn't even know what to turn up with.

xjay1337 said:

I fully support semi slicks on secondary wheels but to use every day they are stupid.

Not at all. An AD08r starts at 8mm and is designed to be used every day on the road as well as on track. Nothing prevents anyone from running them in alternance with winters from say Nov to March. I have done exactly that. On secondary wheels I would run something more focused than a AD08r semi. Plenty of shades of grey.
It's a bit like if I said it's stupid to choose a diesel or an auto for track days. Both might work very well.

You are entitled to your opinion if you think that is stupid

I've put probably 35,000 miles on AD08Rs over 3 years , I think I am fair placed to comment on their effectiveness.

I don't really class AD08R as a proper semi slick, that is more like R888R.

I've not personally had R888R on my car but I've driven a car with them.

I have however had Direzza 03G for a few months and they were absolutely shocking on the road. It reminded me of the Michelin cup race whatever motorcycle tyres I had fitted to my Triumph motorcycle back in the day.

They needed very careful management in the cold, or even when THEY were cold (but ambient was a reasonable 15c) and in the wet

My memory of the Direzza was turning into a dry roundabout at reasonably sedate speed after around a mile of driving and having the back end swap ends. Luckily I caught it but it was very unsettling. A piece of road I drive every day driven in a completely normal manner and the tyre was simply not operating in its intended heat range.

Also, they were ridiculously loud on the road, and the one time I drove them on a motorway in the wet I ended up doing 50 MPH in Lane 1 like an idiot (they had 3.5M tread at this point).

Amazing on the track , though.





My issue is this.
I hate people doing "things" for "things" sake.

For example stripping the interior out of their car they use 95% on the road
or removing the air conditioning to "get extra powerzzzzz"
or fitting stupidly small batteries to their 90/10 road/track car to save 15KG that they'll never notice.

same goes for fitting stupid tyres that are so compromised for a couple of days a year, to get an extra 1S around a lap (which let's be honest could be gained by better driving / education / training) but then the other 363 days you're using the car you are at a huge disadvantage.

I've seen it plenty of times, it looks good on Instagram to have R888R or Cup2 tyres fitted, it's a badge of honour for a lot of people.

If you have a proper mixed use road / track car you need two sets of wheels with a good road tyre (like Michelin PS4 or similar) for normal road use and then a set of Semi slicks for track use.

Again fine if you only ever use the car in the dry but in the UK we have 156 days of rain per year no doubt also with a few extra days where it might not be raining but the road is still wet as it's not dried.

Semi slicks on the road are rubbish, most of the time don't grip better than a UHP road tyre unless it's REALLY hot and/or you've been hammering the car with somecases huge extra wet braking distances.

https://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2020-UHP-UUH...

Some limited data in here but here's a highlight comparing PS4S and Cup 2. It's irrefutable and not based on "subjective feeling". This is the data.




Dry Braking :

Cup 2 - 32.7M
PS4 S - 33.1M

Dry Handling :

Cup 2 - 135.9 KMH
PS4 S - 133 KMH


Wet is where it gets interesting

Wet Braking :

Cup 2 - 34M
PS4 S - 28M (for reference, Conti Sport Contact 6 was 26.6M)


For reference 6M (20ft) is :

over 3 men long
1M longer than a Range Rover

Basically what I'm saying is 6M is a HUGE distance when it comes to braking - and that is going to be the difference between a pretty nasty crash and not crashing


Wet Handling :

Cup 2 - 76.8 KMH
PS4 S - 82.6 KMH



So to re-cap

Difference in Semi Slick favour on a dry track handling speed - 2.9 KMH
Difference in Road Car favour on a wet track handling speed - 5.8 KMH

Not to mention, a braking gain of 0.3M in the dry but a loss of nearly 6M in the wet.

So you are sacrificing twice as much speed in the wet to gain half the speed in the dry (granted it's not quite as simple as that as it doesn't include feedback / steering feel and subjective opinion).

[C70R]

Elatino1 said:

Surprised some of you struggle so much in roads with semi slicks. I drove home from Donington with R888Rs on their way out and it absolutely bucketed it down on the M40 for 45mins, at no point did I feel unsafe deapite all sorts of atanding water.

Given how little tread R888Rs have, I'd not want to be trying to brake on standing water with them on the wear bars. I just can't see how it would end well.

[C70R]

xjay1337 said:

Stuff

What an excellent post. I don't always agree with your PoV, but this is absolutely spot on.

One thing for note is that the test you're linking to was done with a brand new Cup2, with full tread depth. While the semi-slick wears and becomes more of a liability in the wet (because it's shifting less water), wear doesn't really impact the PS4's ability to perform in the dry on track.

I have two sets for exactly this reason, but I have done a full day at Bedford on my PS4s, and the car went really well. Granted, it's a light car and a relatively smooth surface, but I wasn't driving like I had Miss Daisy in the back. I didn't destroy my tyres. I didn't overheat them once (because I limited stints to 5-6 laps). I drove home without a care in the world after putting some pressure back in.

On the point about doing 'things for things sake', I couldn't agree more. Far too many people with track cars get carried away and: a) build cars which far outstrip their ability; b) make sacrifices (like aircon) that they are never going to notice the benefit of.

Overall there's just far too much emphasis on build budgets and extreme modifications for track days, and it just detracts from what should ultimately be an accessible hobby.

[xjay1337]

C70R said:

What an excellent post. I don't always agree with your PoV, but this is absolutely spot on.

One thing for note is that the test you're linking to was done with a brand new Cup2, with full tread depth. While the semi-slick wears and becomes more of a liability in the wet (because it's shifting less water), wear doesn't really impact the PS4's ability to perform in the dry on track.

I have two sets for exactly this reason, but I have done a full day at Bedford on my PS4s, and the car went really well. Granted, it's a light car and a relatively smooth surface, but I wasn't driving like I had Miss Daisy in the back. I didn't destroy my tyres. I didn't overheat them once (because I limited stints to 5-6 laps). I drove home without a care in the world after putting some pressure back in.

On the point about doing 'things for things sake', I couldn't agree more. Far too many people with track cars get carried away and: a) build cars which far outstrip their ability; b) make sacrifices (like aircon) that they are never going to notice the benefit of.

Overall there's just far too much emphasis on build budgets and extreme modifications for track days, and it just detracts from what should ultimately be an accessible hobby.

[C70R]

I was on track at Thruxton on Monday, and while pottering around the pits waiting for the car to cool down this thread came back to me. I wonder whether there's something in the demise of the Max Power/Revs modified car 'scene' and the rise in people building very showy track projects?

There's always been a group of people in the world of modified cars who treat their cars like a personality extension. In the past they might have built show cars, with crazy bodykits and TVs/speakers poking out of every orifice. They would spend every summer weekend polishing their exhaust tips to death in a field with a bunch of their peers, and take real pride in anyone complimenting their project. The sort of people who would start a social media account for their car.

I wonder whether some of this has translated into the sort of trackday 'builds' that we're seeing in increasing numbers?

Back in the Max Power days, it was all about having the right parts fitted. You needed to have the right brands, the most on-trend wheels, the correct 'stage' of tuning from the right tuner etc.
We see some of the same from track cars now. If it's seats, it must be Recaros. If it's suspension or brakes, it must be the most extreme/expensive kit available. There's an implicit expectation of the amount of front camber you should be running. Ad nauseum.

I watched a guy doing a great job of driving a VERY capable E9x M3 on Monday, covered in VERY expensive parts, and he'd fitted some on-trend Recaro buckets. However, when he got into the car, you could see that the seats were hopelessly too small for him (he was a tall guy). The belt holes weren't visible above his shoulders, and most of his head stuck up over the top of the seat. I wonder whether there was ever a decision made about which seats were right, or whether it was mostly about the brand first.

Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe I'm reading too much into it?