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Hi all
Thought I'd throw this out to the PH masses as there is a wealth of knowledge and experience on here. To cut to the chase, I have a preliminary hearing booked this month as I do my David v Goliath bit and take a massive international company to a tribunal. I "think" it's as cut and dried of a case as it's possible to have but can't help having doubts so I guess I'm just looking for a bit of validation or whatever the opposite of that is!!
The background is that I joined this Company at the beginning of Aug 2016 in a sales role and immediately began to out-perform all of my peers, so happy days. In Dec 2016 I began to feel 'odd', difficulty in thinking clearly, visual / balance issues, fatigue etc. Thinking that I was just a bit run down I took a week off from both work and the gym in an effort to recharge. The recharge didn't really happen and over the next few months my symptoms began to worsen. I excused myself from work in Mar 2017 as I was struggling to stay upright or see clearly, my doc signed me off pending investigations and I pinged my absence certificates to my line manager.
This went on for a number of months, HR got involved and at first told me that I would be considered AWOL (my line manager on two occasions didn't forward my certificates) they then accused me of not returning a GP consent form and an occupational health consent form. The fact that they hadn't actually sent the forms didn't seem to detract them! Then, due to the length of the absence I was allocated an HR point of contact, she sent me the documents by email, I signed then and returned them. I updated her with every appointment, result and every avenue of thought regarding a diagnosis. She acknowledged the receipt of the GP and OH forms in June 2017. The correspondence continued, she (HR) would reply within minutes or if late in the day, the next working day. This continued until the 12th July 2017, following a week spent as an inpatient in hospital and lots of tests I was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. This was acknowledged by her and she made reference to arranging a meeting between HR, myself and my regional sales manager to discuss next steps.
Just one problem, no meeting was arranged, no OH appointment arranged and despite me continuing to send updates, I received no response or reply. This continued for 7 months during which time the only contact I had was a generic SSP1 stating that I would no longer be paid SSP and to contact the job centre. I periodically chatted with my line manager via text etc, I informed him that HR weren't responding anymore but still the silence continued. As I felt that the Company had completely cut me off from the day of my diagnosis of a condition that automatically qualifies as a disability under employment law I approached ACAS. ACAS contacted them but they didn't want to engage, ACAS made contact on the 27th Feb 2018 which coincidentally seemed to spark a flurry of activity. A payment appeared in my account the very next morning. To this day I have had no wage slip to support it and can only assume it was the accrued, untaken holiday up to the end of the holiday year in Sep 17. A letter from HR (a new contact) was drafted and sent to me on the 28th Feb inviting me to a 'welfare meeting' to take place on the 6th Mar at my house. The meeting took place between myself, my line manager and the regional manager, HR did not attend. I was asked to sign a GP consent form and a OH form.....again.. I told them straight that I felt that this meeting was only happening due to ACAS contacting the Company without which I'd still be getting the silent treatment. They disagreed but I was shown the email from HR to my RSM and coincidentally, it was dated the 27th Feb 18, the day that ACAS made contact.
I have finally had the OH appointment, over 1 year since signing the consent and receiving acknowledgement of receipt. The first appointment was cancelled by me due to ill health. The second appointment didn't happen because my Company had agreed to send a taxi to collect me but failed to do so but we finally achieved it on the 3rd attempt. I received the report on the 19th Jun 18 and finally had an email from HR (yet another new contact) on the 25th Jun to say that they'd be in touch once they'd received their copy (which they got the same time I did!!). I even sent them my copy to "help" them but they've gone quiet again.
To summarise then, for those who are still awake.
I have the preliminary hearing this month
I'm taking them to a tribunal on the grounds of disability discrimination by virtue of
1) cutting me off from the day that I told them of my diagnosis
2) Replacing me in my absence (there is a back story to this but I've bored you enough for now)
3) Keeping me in limbo over 12 months by not acting on the Occupational Health form from June 2017
4) failing to communicate with me from even as much as a welfare perspective
5) generally being dicks
I've documented everything including the 'chats' between myself and my line manager which includes such peaches as "at no stage have HR ever contacted me regarding you or asked me to keep them updated".
Despite all of this, and much, much more that I haven't said on here, what are your thoughts on how much of a case I have, generally speaking?
Any thoughts much appreciated, not after sympathy or any of that crap just perhaps something to help rid me of some of the doubts in my mind along the lines of 'Large, multinational Company are going to wiggle out of this'
Cheers
Thought I'd throw this out to the PH masses as there is a wealth of knowledge and experience on here. To cut to the chase, I have a preliminary hearing booked this month as I do my David v Goliath bit and take a massive international company to a tribunal. I "think" it's as cut and dried of a case as it's possible to have but can't help having doubts so I guess I'm just looking for a bit of validation or whatever the opposite of that is!!
The background is that I joined this Company at the beginning of Aug 2016 in a sales role and immediately began to out-perform all of my peers, so happy days. In Dec 2016 I began to feel 'odd', difficulty in thinking clearly, visual / balance issues, fatigue etc. Thinking that I was just a bit run down I took a week off from both work and the gym in an effort to recharge. The recharge didn't really happen and over the next few months my symptoms began to worsen. I excused myself from work in Mar 2017 as I was struggling to stay upright or see clearly, my doc signed me off pending investigations and I pinged my absence certificates to my line manager.
This went on for a number of months, HR got involved and at first told me that I would be considered AWOL (my line manager on two occasions didn't forward my certificates) they then accused me of not returning a GP consent form and an occupational health consent form. The fact that they hadn't actually sent the forms didn't seem to detract them! Then, due to the length of the absence I was allocated an HR point of contact, she sent me the documents by email, I signed then and returned them. I updated her with every appointment, result and every avenue of thought regarding a diagnosis. She acknowledged the receipt of the GP and OH forms in June 2017. The correspondence continued, she (HR) would reply within minutes or if late in the day, the next working day. This continued until the 12th July 2017, following a week spent as an inpatient in hospital and lots of tests I was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. This was acknowledged by her and she made reference to arranging a meeting between HR, myself and my regional sales manager to discuss next steps.
Just one problem, no meeting was arranged, no OH appointment arranged and despite me continuing to send updates, I received no response or reply. This continued for 7 months during which time the only contact I had was a generic SSP1 stating that I would no longer be paid SSP and to contact the job centre. I periodically chatted with my line manager via text etc, I informed him that HR weren't responding anymore but still the silence continued. As I felt that the Company had completely cut me off from the day of my diagnosis of a condition that automatically qualifies as a disability under employment law I approached ACAS. ACAS contacted them but they didn't want to engage, ACAS made contact on the 27th Feb 2018 which coincidentally seemed to spark a flurry of activity. A payment appeared in my account the very next morning. To this day I have had no wage slip to support it and can only assume it was the accrued, untaken holiday up to the end of the holiday year in Sep 17. A letter from HR (a new contact) was drafted and sent to me on the 28th Feb inviting me to a 'welfare meeting' to take place on the 6th Mar at my house. The meeting took place between myself, my line manager and the regional manager, HR did not attend. I was asked to sign a GP consent form and a OH form.....again.. I told them straight that I felt that this meeting was only happening due to ACAS contacting the Company without which I'd still be getting the silent treatment. They disagreed but I was shown the email from HR to my RSM and coincidentally, it was dated the 27th Feb 18, the day that ACAS made contact.
I have finally had the OH appointment, over 1 year since signing the consent and receiving acknowledgement of receipt. The first appointment was cancelled by me due to ill health. The second appointment didn't happen because my Company had agreed to send a taxi to collect me but failed to do so but we finally achieved it on the 3rd attempt. I received the report on the 19th Jun 18 and finally had an email from HR (yet another new contact) on the 25th Jun to say that they'd be in touch once they'd received their copy (which they got the same time I did!!). I even sent them my copy to "help" them but they've gone quiet again.
To summarise then, for those who are still awake.
I have the preliminary hearing this month
I'm taking them to a tribunal on the grounds of disability discrimination by virtue of
1) cutting me off from the day that I told them of my diagnosis
2) Replacing me in my absence (there is a back story to this but I've bored you enough for now)
3) Keeping me in limbo over 12 months by not acting on the Occupational Health form from June 2017
4) failing to communicate with me from even as much as a welfare perspective
5) generally being dicks
I've documented everything including the 'chats' between myself and my line manager which includes such peaches as "at no stage have HR ever contacted me regarding you or asked me to keep them updated".
Despite all of this, and much, much more that I haven't said on here, what are your thoughts on how much of a case I have, generally speaking?
Any thoughts much appreciated, not after sympathy or any of that crap just perhaps something to help rid me of some of the doubts in my mind along the lines of 'Large, multinational Company are going to wiggle out of this'
Cheers
No, I'm still employed by them although they don't pay me anything and didn't communicate with me for 7 months. There is no job for me to go back to even if that was possible as the position was filled. On paper, they've upped the number of staff at my particular location by one on the pretence that there is still a position there. They have cited 'a business need' for increasing the staffing by one yet for over a year, they've operated with the same number of staff, haven't recruited a temporary member of staff to cover my absence even during their busiest period of the year.
I am of the opinion that they just assumed that I'd resign when they stopped paying me. I didn't because, well, why would I, I have a contract of employment with them. They could legitimately have dismissed me on the grounds of capability but instead just cut off all communication and didn't act on the signed occupational health consent form for 1 year.
I am of the opinion that they just assumed that I'd resign when they stopped paying me. I didn't because, well, why would I, I have a contract of employment with them. They could legitimately have dismissed me on the grounds of capability but instead just cut off all communication and didn't act on the signed occupational health consent form for 1 year.
The company should've made some reasonable adjustments to get you back to work and if that wasn't possible due your health, I'd have thought they would have grounds to offer you ill health retirement, if that's what you wanted.
It's not clear from your info whether you wanted to remain at the company doing whatever role you were capable of and if so, whether they refused to accommodate your wishes.
If you made it clear that you wanted to return to work then they would need good evidence to prove they did everything reasonable to get you back. This would include a number of offers to do certain roles and other adjustments like flexible working, specialist equipment etc. Without this evidence, you have a good case.
The equalities act is very strong so I'm surprised the company hasn't bent over backwards to keep you happy as tribunals take a dim view of large organisations not making an effort.
It's not clear from your info whether you wanted to remain at the company doing whatever role you were capable of and if so, whether they refused to accommodate your wishes.
If you made it clear that you wanted to return to work then they would need good evidence to prove they did everything reasonable to get you back. This would include a number of offers to do certain roles and other adjustments like flexible working, specialist equipment etc. Without this evidence, you have a good case.
The equalities act is very strong so I'm surprised the company hasn't bent over backwards to keep you happy as tribunals take a dim view of large organisations not making an effort.
edc said:
What are you trying to achieve? It appears you are still employed and have received all the payments you have expected to receive.
I simply want them to look me in the eye, in front of a panel of employment law specialists and explain to me why they decided to treat me in the manner that they have. I've been around the block enough times to know that I am merely a number to them and despite all their posters about how much they value their employees and all that rubbish it is merely a platitude.I'm calling them on it, I dislike bullies and have always stood up for the 'little man', well unfortunately, by a bizarre quirk of fate, I am now the 'little man'. They need to explain why, despite the medical evidence, they chose not to arrange an occupational health appointment for over a year. Why, despite their "duty of care" to me as an employee they chose to simply cut off all correspondence for over 7 months. Coincidentally, prior to telling them of my diagnosis they were all over me like a rash yet they simply stopped replying from the day that I told them of my diagnosis. Why, despite discussing it as the next legitimate course of action, they didn't arrange a meeting with me for over 8 months. All of the above is rhetorical to a degree, they just expected me to quit and cease to be their problem, even if that isn't true, they need to justify their actions / inactions.
xx99xx said:
The company should've made some reasonable adjustments to get you back to work and if that wasn't possible due your health, I'd have thought they would have grounds to offer you ill health retirement, if that's what you wanted.
It's not clear from your info whether you wanted to remain at the company doing whatever role you were capable of and if so, whether they refused to accommodate your wishes.
If you made it clear that you wanted to return to work then they would need good evidence to prove they did everything reasonable to get you back. This would include a number of offers to do certain roles and other adjustments like flexible working, specialist equipment etc. Without this evidence, you have a good case.
The equalities act is very strong so I'm surprised the company hasn't bent over backwards to keep you happy as tribunals take a dim view of large organisations not making an effort.
That's the problem, they can only make reasonable adjustments once they've received the report from Occupational Health. They had a signed consent form for a year before they decided to do anything about it. They knew my diagnosis in July last year and had the medical reports to confirm it. They chose to just ignore that and me for the next 7 months and only re-engaged then because ACAS gave them a call in Feb 2018.It's not clear from your info whether you wanted to remain at the company doing whatever role you were capable of and if so, whether they refused to accommodate your wishes.
If you made it clear that you wanted to return to work then they would need good evidence to prove they did everything reasonable to get you back. This would include a number of offers to do certain roles and other adjustments like flexible working, specialist equipment etc. Without this evidence, you have a good case.
The equalities act is very strong so I'm surprised the company hasn't bent over backwards to keep you happy as tribunals take a dim view of large organisations not making an effort.
Other than that, they did absolutely nothing other then recruit somebody else and hope that I'd just play ball and go away
Do you know if the company has a long-term disability policy/renumeration? Most large internationals will have something that'll cover something like 1-10 years of incapacity during which you would get a slightly reduced salary until such a time you were able to return to work or the LTD cover would lapse. If they have something, there should be policies around what happens when and timeframes for communication - if they have failed to follow this then your case will be slightly stronger.
Does your employer have a pension scheme? Are you a member? If so, it is likely to have ill health early retirement provisions that you may qualify for? If all of this is the case, maybe the company's inaction is an attempt to avoid you getting the ill health pension and the substantial associated cost they will bear.
R.
R.
Does your employer have a pension scheme? Are you a member? If so, it is likely to have ill health early retirement provisions that you may qualify for? If all of this is the case, maybe the company's inaction is an attempt to avoid you getting the ill health pension and the substantial associated cost they will bear.
R.
R.
At any point during the regular updates you were giving them, did you outline what you wanted in terms of your employment?
I know you were wanting an occ health referal but what did/do you want to do about your job? Aim to return to same job, return to a different job, get ill health retirement etc?
It sounds like you just wanted them to keep in touch, which is a reasonable expectation, but you and the business need to do things in the meantime to get to either where you or the business want you to be i.e back to work or retired. If you hadn't said what you were wanting then I'd have expected the business to take the lead and start setting deadlines for things to happen.
I agree though that they probably expected you to just resign once you were on zero pay for several months which is very naive of them. I imagine returning to work, if even possible, would be rather awkward after taking them to a tribunal.
I know you were wanting an occ health referal but what did/do you want to do about your job? Aim to return to same job, return to a different job, get ill health retirement etc?
It sounds like you just wanted them to keep in touch, which is a reasonable expectation, but you and the business need to do things in the meantime to get to either where you or the business want you to be i.e back to work or retired. If you hadn't said what you were wanting then I'd have expected the business to take the lead and start setting deadlines for things to happen.
I agree though that they probably expected you to just resign once you were on zero pay for several months which is very naive of them. I imagine returning to work, if even possible, would be rather awkward after taking them to a tribunal.
I think you need to be clearer on what you actually want. Your day in court? They may just send someone to represent them, and even if they do attend, they'll just dress things up, maybe admit to some failings, its a big company etc etc. They are hardly all going to have a crisis of conscience and forever change their ways.
Work out what you really want, you may be able to get a settlement agreement, nice payout and put it all behind you.
Take the emotion out of it, work out what is a win, stick to the facts.
And sorry to hear about your illness.
Work out what you really want, you may be able to get a settlement agreement, nice payout and put it all behind you.
Take the emotion out of it, work out what is a win, stick to the facts.
And sorry to hear about your illness.
Hi all...………………...It's been a while!
I guess the main reason for this update is to demonstrate the potential time frame and stresses of going down the Employment Tribunal route. The full merits hearing still hasn't happened, it has been re-scheduled a number of times. The latest dates were scheduled for the 18th-20th Sept 2019 but due to a clerical error at the ET we're going to have a further preliminary hearing on the 20th.
Since my previous post. a great deal has happened, to summarise;
1) I was dismissed on the grounds of medical capability - They did not seek any specialist medical advice, they did not consider any alternative employment and did not carry out any of the recommendations on the Occupational health report. They've even admitted this on their outcome of appeal to dismissal letter.
2) I submitted a Subject Access Request and have since reported them to the ICO as they are quite clearly withholding documents.
3) An email and attached document that they produced as evidence that they were being proactive (they ceased correspondence with me for over 7 months) demonstrates that I was treated differently to 10 other employees who were on long term absence during that period (there are only 12 entries on the document including my own). The other person on the document that had had no contact according to the notes was a person with a "terminal illness", I will be presenting that as evidence of a pattern of behaviour as in my experience, the expression "terminal illness" is usually reserved for a debilitating illness such as cancer and if it was cancer then that person would also have a condition automatically considered to be a disability.
4) the bundle of evidence has been agreed, at least 90% of it is evidence that I've provided, the Company have been unable to produce a single document that supports their version of events.
5) The HR business partner that had overall responsibility yet denied knowing anything about it, that lied on the ET3 response and that has lied on her witness statement (the evidence bundle proves beyond any doubt that she was lying) has left the business, coincidentally, she used to work for the legal firm representing the respondent.
6) I began losing my sight due to a very rare reaction to my medication, fortunately that has resolved itself following a change of meds.
7) The witness statements (4 of them) are the greatest works of fiction since the Harry Potter series, my immediate line manager's statement is just incredible. Again, none of the evidence supports their versions of events.
8) The regional manager who chaired 2 of my meetings including a 2 hr one at my home (the contents of which are denied by my line manager despite the fact that he attended!) has not been asked to provide a statement or has chosen not to because he has integrity, he has also now left the business!
All in all, lots has happened, I've endured threats and attempted intimidation from their legal representatives, declining health, exasperation and stress but all it does is harden my resolve to see it through to the bitter end, whatever that may be.
I'm still feeling pretty positive about the whole thing, they have a case to answer without a doubt, hopefully there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
I guess the main reason for this update is to demonstrate the potential time frame and stresses of going down the Employment Tribunal route. The full merits hearing still hasn't happened, it has been re-scheduled a number of times. The latest dates were scheduled for the 18th-20th Sept 2019 but due to a clerical error at the ET we're going to have a further preliminary hearing on the 20th.
Since my previous post. a great deal has happened, to summarise;
1) I was dismissed on the grounds of medical capability - They did not seek any specialist medical advice, they did not consider any alternative employment and did not carry out any of the recommendations on the Occupational health report. They've even admitted this on their outcome of appeal to dismissal letter.
2) I submitted a Subject Access Request and have since reported them to the ICO as they are quite clearly withholding documents.
3) An email and attached document that they produced as evidence that they were being proactive (they ceased correspondence with me for over 7 months) demonstrates that I was treated differently to 10 other employees who were on long term absence during that period (there are only 12 entries on the document including my own). The other person on the document that had had no contact according to the notes was a person with a "terminal illness", I will be presenting that as evidence of a pattern of behaviour as in my experience, the expression "terminal illness" is usually reserved for a debilitating illness such as cancer and if it was cancer then that person would also have a condition automatically considered to be a disability.
4) the bundle of evidence has been agreed, at least 90% of it is evidence that I've provided, the Company have been unable to produce a single document that supports their version of events.
5) The HR business partner that had overall responsibility yet denied knowing anything about it, that lied on the ET3 response and that has lied on her witness statement (the evidence bundle proves beyond any doubt that she was lying) has left the business, coincidentally, she used to work for the legal firm representing the respondent.
6) I began losing my sight due to a very rare reaction to my medication, fortunately that has resolved itself following a change of meds.
7) The witness statements (4 of them) are the greatest works of fiction since the Harry Potter series, my immediate line manager's statement is just incredible. Again, none of the evidence supports their versions of events.
8) The regional manager who chaired 2 of my meetings including a 2 hr one at my home (the contents of which are denied by my line manager despite the fact that he attended!) has not been asked to provide a statement or has chosen not to because he has integrity, he has also now left the business!
All in all, lots has happened, I've endured threats and attempted intimidation from their legal representatives, declining health, exasperation and stress but all it does is harden my resolve to see it through to the bitter end, whatever that may be.
I'm still feeling pretty positive about the whole thing, they have a case to answer without a doubt, hopefully there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Countdown said:
OP - apologies if I've missed something.
Whilst the Company clearly haven't communicated with you as you feel they should have - what outcome are you hoping for from the Tribunal?
Compensation? Re-instatement?
Originally it was some crusade to hold them accountable for their actions / inactions, it was never driven by money, I genuinely believe, without trying to sound too melodramatic, that some people would be driven to suicide if they'd had to go through this. . However, I'm not naïve to the fact that the only real outcome that is of any use to me is compensation. I believe that I can prove three counts of disability discrimination, that will be the focus of my approach in Court. The only 'defence' that they have been able to provide is that "a number of people left the HR department and it was that and that alone that caused the lack of contact etc". What they didn't mention in that statement is that the people that left were made redundant, they didn't just up and leave.Whilst the Company clearly haven't communicated with you as you feel they should have - what outcome are you hoping for from the Tribunal?
Compensation? Re-instatement?
cbmotorsport said:
I'm surprised that this has got this far, most major companies will just brush something like this under the carpet with an (insignificant to them) pay out. and get you to sign an end to it all.
I think it's in their best interests for it to drag on as long as possible as they know that that has a detrimental effect on me and in their mind, makes it more likely that I'll drop it and it'll go away.The good thing about keeping the 20th as a date where we all have to show up in court despite the full merits being re-scheduled is that it puts some pressure back on them. They physically have to send a representative which means instructing new counsel as the original legal representative is double booked on another case, hence why the full merits is having to be rescheduled.
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