Getting no where applying for roles
Discussion
TheAngryDog said:
Flooble said:
TheAngryDog said:
It's definitely a disheartening process.
In between being messed around by recruiters / ghosted by companies I have had interviews for, I am beginning to think that I am unemployable outside of the role that I currently have.
Anyone who thinks being ghosted by an internal recruiter for a role you've interviewed for is acceptable is crazy.
Internal recruiter, as in works at the same firm?In between being messed around by recruiters / ghosted by companies I have had interviews for, I am beginning to think that I am unemployable outside of the role that I currently have.
Anyone who thinks being ghosted by an internal recruiter for a role you've interviewed for is acceptable is crazy.
However, with it being internal, you presumably have the ability to look up all the people who work in HR and pester some of them. Decent firms will have the org chart visible so you can go straight to the manager of the internal recruiter.
Depends how much of a fuss you want to kick up.
In terms of where you are with roles, don't be disheartened. I have seen it from both sides.
Any vacancy is swamped with unsuitable applicants that you still should filter through. So fatigue does set in when you have just sited the 100th CV from someone who can't spell and has clearly not read the job ad. And there is a temptation to dump the 101st CV onwards, especially if number 99 was a good enough fit. If your CV happened to be number 101 then you are out of luck.
I also see CVs from people who somehow magically tick every single box that HR added to the description. It's obvious they have just written a tailored CV but nothing you can do about it except bring them in for interview and try to expose the lies. There is a somewhat famous story about just how stupid the buzzword shopping has become: https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/05/infinidash/
Similarly from the other side, if you aren't spending hours tailoring your CV to each application you probably won't get very far. You will also likely become disheartened at the laundry list of requirements on the jobs ads, most of which weren't put there by the hiring manager.
By far the best way to find a role, if you possibly can, is to network. However you choose to do that - ring up old friends who you used to work with; start leaving comments on Blogs/LinkedIn Posts/whatever; go to some events where people in the same industry may hang out. Bypassing HR and having an "inside man" will get you a lot further - but I will say that I was once put forward for a role by someone who worked in the firm already and got absolutely nowhere. It was a perfect fit and my "inside man" was a Director of the firm ... but HR still managed to mess it up!
So don't give up, as someone said above, you only need one job. Or to put it another way, you are a salesman but you only have to make one sale!
HR or recruitment folks have no real interest in adding in made up experience or qualifications to a job description or advert. It's in nobody's interest not to fill a role which is live and active. If anybody thinks HR folk get extra recognition or bonuses for not filling roles, making the recruitment process longer than ever then really they need to look at their senior business managers.
There may be times when the job advert or requirements look particularly tough. But there may be reasons for that. Perhaps it's an existing team of plodders or an older bunch who are close to retirement. Every team needs a mix of ability and experience.
Sometimes the job advert will look like a laundry list especially compared to the salary. In these cases you might find it's a poorly written advert as really what they want is somebody who can develop into the role and gain that experience quickly. Or somebody who has an understanding of those tools/concepts but not yet got much practical experience under the belt.
There may be times when the job advert or requirements look particularly tough. But there may be reasons for that. Perhaps it's an existing team of plodders or an older bunch who are close to retirement. Every team needs a mix of ability and experience.
Sometimes the job advert will look like a laundry list especially compared to the salary. In these cases you might find it's a poorly written advert as really what they want is somebody who can develop into the role and gain that experience quickly. Or somebody who has an understanding of those tools/concepts but not yet got much practical experience under the belt.
Flooble said:
TheAngryDog said:
Flooble said:
TheAngryDog said:
It's definitely a disheartening process.
In between being messed around by recruiters / ghosted by companies I have had interviews for, I am beginning to think that I am unemployable outside of the role that I currently have.
Anyone who thinks being ghosted by an internal recruiter for a role you've interviewed for is acceptable is crazy.
Internal recruiter, as in works at the same firm?In between being messed around by recruiters / ghosted by companies I have had interviews for, I am beginning to think that I am unemployable outside of the role that I currently have.
Anyone who thinks being ghosted by an internal recruiter for a role you've interviewed for is acceptable is crazy.
However, with it being internal, you presumably have the ability to look up all the people who work in HR and pester some of them. Decent firms will have the org chart visible so you can go straight to the manager of the internal recruiter.
Depends how much of a fuss you want to kick up.
In terms of where you are with roles, don't be disheartened. I have seen it from both sides.
Any vacancy is swamped with unsuitable applicants that you still should filter through. So fatigue does set in when you have just sited the 100th CV from someone who can't spell and has clearly not read the job ad. And there is a temptation to dump the 101st CV onwards, especially if number 99 was a good enough fit. If your CV happened to be number 101 then you are out of luck.
I also see CVs from people who somehow magically tick every single box that HR added to the description. It's obvious they have just written a tailored CV but nothing you can do about it except bring them in for interview and try to expose the lies. There is a somewhat famous story about just how stupid the buzzword shopping has become: https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/05/infinidash/
Similarly from the other side, if you aren't spending hours tailoring your CV to each application you probably won't get very far. You will also likely become disheartened at the laundry list of requirements on the jobs ads, most of which weren't put there by the hiring manager.
By far the best way to find a role, if you possibly can, is to network. However you choose to do that - ring up old friends who you used to work with; start leaving comments on Blogs/LinkedIn Posts/whatever; go to some events where people in the same industry may hang out. Bypassing HR and having an "inside man" will get you a lot further - but I will say that I was once put forward for a role by someone who worked in the firm already and got absolutely nowhere. It was a perfect fit and my "inside man" was a Director of the firm ... but HR still managed to mess it up!
So don't give up, as someone said above, you only need one job. Or to put it another way, you are a salesman but you only have to make one sale!
I have 3 interviews this week. 1 is a 2nd interview in person so see how that goes.
Just a short note but If you re read what I said I said ‘not put there by the hiring manager’. In my experience I can say ‘ I need someone who can do X’. The Ad will then be discussed and drafted by other people sticking their nose in, from the MD (at a small place) or the other engineering managers (at a large place) down to the Team Lead. By the time they have each added their personal obsession I am looking for someone with 300 skills
In one place the Team Lead insisted that new hires had to have funky technology Y. I was not convinced that we couldn’t recruit someone who knew the basics and train them, but he was adamant (to be fair he was also a bit of a plank and I had learned not to waste effort arguing with him - a ‘technology prima Donna’ as it were)
My point really was to the OP that these laundry lists are often flights of fantasy by people who have no ability to correlate their current extra workload with their unrealistic expectations.
Look at all the firms complaining they can’t recruit Masters qualified experienced professionals for £20k per year and blaming ‘skills shortage’ ...
In one place the Team Lead insisted that new hires had to have funky technology Y. I was not convinced that we couldn’t recruit someone who knew the basics and train them, but he was adamant (to be fair he was also a bit of a plank and I had learned not to waste effort arguing with him - a ‘technology prima Donna’ as it were)
My point really was to the OP that these laundry lists are often flights of fantasy by people who have no ability to correlate their current extra workload with their unrealistic expectations.
Look at all the firms complaining they can’t recruit Masters qualified experienced professionals for £20k per year and blaming ‘skills shortage’ ...
Flooble said:
My point really was to the OP that these laundry lists are often flights of fantasy by people who have no ability to correlate
their current extra workload with their unrealistic expectations.
their current extra workload with their unrealistic expectations.
As the saying goes, if most people saw their current jobs advertised, they wouldn't feel they were suitable a candidate to apply for it.Flooble said:
Just a short note but If you re read what I said I said ‘not put there by the hiring manager’. In my experience I can say ‘ I need someone who can do X’. The Ad will then be discussed and drafted by other people sticking their nose in, from the MD (at a small place) or the other engineering managers (at a large place) down to the Team Lead. By the time they have each added their personal obsession I am looking for someone with 300 skills
In one place the Team Lead insisted that new hires had to have funky technology Y. I was not convinced that we couldn’t recruit someone who knew the basics and train them, but he was adamant (to be fair he was also a bit of a plank and I had learned not to waste effort arguing with him - a ‘technology prima Donna’ as it were)
My point really was to the OP that these laundry lists are often flights of fantasy by people who have no ability to correlate their current extra workload with their unrealistic expectations.
Look at all the firms complaining they can’t recruit Masters qualified experienced professionals for £20k per year and blaming ‘skills shortage’ ...
It's especially true in engineering and technology, you see skills listed which you'd only find in that company, you get a long list followed by "must be able to use MS Office", and I look that and think "who the f**k thinks that MS Office is a skill?".In one place the Team Lead insisted that new hires had to have funky technology Y. I was not convinced that we couldn’t recruit someone who knew the basics and train them, but he was adamant (to be fair he was also a bit of a plank and I had learned not to waste effort arguing with him - a ‘technology prima Donna’ as it were)
My point really was to the OP that these laundry lists are often flights of fantasy by people who have no ability to correlate their current extra workload with their unrealistic expectations.
Look at all the firms complaining they can’t recruit Masters qualified experienced professionals for £20k per year and blaming ‘skills shortage’ ...
The other one I see a lot at the moment is SAP, which i've used in two companies, but it's customised and different in every single company that uses it, it's utterly pointless listing it down as a required "skill".
It's basically managers and admin types who actually think this stuff is difficult.
lyonspride said:
It's especially true in engineering and technology, you see skills listed which you'd only find in that company, you get a long list followed by "must be able to use MS Office", and I look that and think "who the f**k thinks that MS Office is a skill?".
The other one I see a lot at the moment is SAP, which i've used in two companies, but it's customised and different in every single company that uses it, it's utterly pointless listing it down as a required "skill".
It's basically managers and admin types who actually think this stuff is difficult.
In my experience in Royal Mail, a majority of the operational managers that I worked with did not know how to manipulate data (pivot tables), create graphs/charts or formulas in Excel, they just used it for database text or figure entry, the senior management (directors) would ask/tell others they want this or that and someone in their team would change the data for them. Also none of them were trained in using Word or PowerPoint and not heard of Access.The other one I see a lot at the moment is SAP, which i've used in two companies, but it's customised and different in every single company that uses it, it's utterly pointless listing it down as a required "skill".
It's basically managers and admin types who actually think this stuff is difficult.
SAP was only ever used by the purchasing team, each department were given Banner catalogues and completed an Excel form to fill in for their office supplies we needed, the items was not always from Banner but used as a source of items we can order. Anything not in the catalogue we would have to put a valid reason why we needed the item and usually we would we get the cheapest version of the said item weeks later.
I hope TheAngryDog is seeing more progress than me.
There’s a job I’m very keen on, mainly because the manager seems a very decent bloke but also because of the breadth of the role, which I had a first interview for in mid July. Although feedback was supposed to be quick I didn’t hear until the end of July. Apparently the recruitment consultant had had Covid.
I had a Teams call with the manager and my potential colleague last Tuesday, and they were supposed to give feedback to the consultant by last Friday.
On Monday I followed up and was told they really liked me but no decision had been made yet.
It’s now Wednesday and I’m continuing to interview elsewhere, for more money but not such an interesting job or appealing environment.
I suppose they are busy and this is a new role so perhaps not urgent but I wonder what they would be like to work for if this is their idea of moving fast and if they are prepared to risk good candidates going elsewhere.
There’s a job I’m very keen on, mainly because the manager seems a very decent bloke but also because of the breadth of the role, which I had a first interview for in mid July. Although feedback was supposed to be quick I didn’t hear until the end of July. Apparently the recruitment consultant had had Covid.
I had a Teams call with the manager and my potential colleague last Tuesday, and they were supposed to give feedback to the consultant by last Friday.
On Monday I followed up and was told they really liked me but no decision had been made yet.
It’s now Wednesday and I’m continuing to interview elsewhere, for more money but not such an interesting job or appealing environment.
I suppose they are busy and this is a new role so perhaps not urgent but I wonder what they would be like to work for if this is their idea of moving fast and if they are prepared to risk good candidates going elsewhere.
CoupeKid said:
I hope TheAngryDog is seeing more progress than me.
There’s a job I’m very keen on, mainly because the manager seems a very decent bloke but also because of the breadth of the role, which I had a first interview for in mid July. Although feedback was supposed to be quick I didn’t hear until the end of July. Apparently the recruitment consultant had had Covid.
I had a Teams call with the manager and my potential colleague last Tuesday, and they were supposed to give feedback to the consultant by last Friday.
On Monday I followed up and was told they really liked me but no decision had been made yet.
It’s now Wednesday and I’m continuing to interview elsewhere, for more money but not such an interesting job or appealing environment.
I suppose they are busy and this is a new role so perhaps not urgent but I wonder what they would be like to work for if this is their idea of moving fast and if they are prepared to risk good candidates going elsewhere.
Nope, no progress at all. Had a few second interviews, but thanks but no thanks. I am learning a lot about myself and about the interviewers. I know what I need to work on and know what I am strong on. There’s a job I’m very keen on, mainly because the manager seems a very decent bloke but also because of the breadth of the role, which I had a first interview for in mid July. Although feedback was supposed to be quick I didn’t hear until the end of July. Apparently the recruitment consultant had had Covid.
I had a Teams call with the manager and my potential colleague last Tuesday, and they were supposed to give feedback to the consultant by last Friday.
On Monday I followed up and was told they really liked me but no decision had been made yet.
It’s now Wednesday and I’m continuing to interview elsewhere, for more money but not such an interesting job or appealing environment.
I suppose they are busy and this is a new role so perhaps not urgent but I wonder what they would be like to work for if this is their idea of moving fast and if they are prepared to risk good candidates going elsewhere.
I have a second interview lined up for next week. If nothing comes from that then I am going to put my hunt on hiatus and do get some certificates to back up my skills, knowledge and experience.
Good luck to you in your search!
What are they telling you?
Re coupekid, that is entirely normal of a great many companies that are good places to work. I got offered a job at one of the largest companies there is in a decent level of position and it took months, and there was a lot of delays between rounds. As much as you may think your interview process is the most important thing in your world, it generally is far from it in theirs, unless you're going to be C-suite or similar.
Re coupekid, that is entirely normal of a great many companies that are good places to work. I got offered a job at one of the largest companies there is in a decent level of position and it took months, and there was a lot of delays between rounds. As much as you may think your interview process is the most important thing in your world, it generally is far from it in theirs, unless you're going to be C-suite or similar.
okgo said:
What are they telling you?
Re coupekid, that is entirely normal of a great many companies that are good places to work. I got offered a job at one of the largest companies there is in a decent level of position and it took months, and there was a lot of delays between rounds. As much as you may think your interview process is the most important thing in your world, it generally is far from it in theirs, unless you're going to be C-suite or similar.
Well, that depends. Up to now all feedback has been vague. It is what I am telling myself that is driving me. Re coupekid, that is entirely normal of a great many companies that are good places to work. I got offered a job at one of the largest companies there is in a decent level of position and it took months, and there was a lot of delays between rounds. As much as you may think your interview process is the most important thing in your world, it generally is far from it in theirs, unless you're going to be C-suite or similar.
TheAngryDog said:
Nope, no progress at all. Had a few second interviews, but thanks but no thanks. I am learning a lot about myself and about the interviewers. I know what I need to work on and know what I am strong on.
I have a second interview lined up for next week. If nothing comes from that then I am going to put my hunt on hiatus and do get some certificates to back up my skills, knowledge and experience.
Good luck to you in your search!
Fair do's. If its helping focus you down to what you actually want to do next and what you need to get there then the job hunting has had some benefits even if it hasn't led to a job yet.I have a second interview lined up for next week. If nothing comes from that then I am going to put my hunt on hiatus and do get some certificates to back up my skills, knowledge and experience.
Good luck to you in your search!
I'm in a similar position.
To get "qualified" I need experience in A+B+C+D.
I have experience in A+B+C+E and have touched on D & F.
There's a lot of work in A+B+C+E+F but I've decided I'm only really interested now in the jobs which include skill D as part of them. I'll happily concentrate on A+B+C but want exposure to D and am not interested in jobs without it.
Having read the thread I'll add my tuppence worth.
My experience comes largely from plc's, so may not be as relevant for smaller firms. Personally I tend to swap jobs every few years and aim for an internal promotion then new company. Over the last decade I've had multiple interviews (some for places I didn't want, just to practice interviewing) and others where I've been offered the job and turned it down. Overall, I've a decent 'win' ratio - but as with all internet advice YMMV, so please take what is useful and ignore the rest.
The cover letter posted earlier shows good technical knowledge, but doesn't actually say much about you or your ambitions. It reads as a list of stuff previously done for someone else. A sentence or two on what you want to do next, and therefore what you'll bring to the new company (possibly even why that company or role) wouldn't go amiss - don't make it any longer though.
Interview technique is a thing. Lots out there to read up on regards talking speed, tone, intonation, smiling, remembering names, dress code (role and industry appropriate), making a good impression, making sure you know all about the company (read the annual report...all of it, not just the summary...for an idea on strategic direction) etc - if you haven’t been reading up and this isn't teaching to suck eggs then fire up Google and start reading!
With regards prep, I've always spent some time writing down about half a dozen (or slightly more) key achievements that a) I'm proud of b) were mostly mine and c) that I can use to demonstrate a number of the attributes that the target role / company is looking for (you should know this going in - from the Job Description, plus a look at the company behaviours etc from their website, if a large company). Google typical competency based Interview questions for your field and test yourself on being able to concisely answer them with your examples, allowing 10 mins or less for each. Examples that show a strategic mindset a bonus.
For each you should have a clear view before you start answering exactly what message you want to leave them with - That time you had a difficult technical challenge because the Internets all fell over in the server room, and you ensured through your passion for mentoring others that the new grad was able to use the experience to learn the order they needed to all be picked up again in... (more subtle obviously, but you get the point).
Practice, practice and practice again until your answers roll off the tounge, naturally, and the three to five seconds of silence that it takes you to start your answer in the real scenario (that you'll want the Interviewer to be thinking you're spending internalising the question) will simply be you counting down for dramatic effect as you prepare to answer.
Standard advice about making sure you have an example where you made a mistake and learnt from it too...
To many the above will seem unnecessary. However,
for many competitve roles, if you’ve not been doing the above, rest assured that the candidate interviewing for the same position as you who's in next will have been...
Once you know you're on top of your prep, and you know that you know your specialism inside out, you can relax a bit and try to have fun with the experience (which will come across well).
YMMV etc.
My experience comes largely from plc's, so may not be as relevant for smaller firms. Personally I tend to swap jobs every few years and aim for an internal promotion then new company. Over the last decade I've had multiple interviews (some for places I didn't want, just to practice interviewing) and others where I've been offered the job and turned it down. Overall, I've a decent 'win' ratio - but as with all internet advice YMMV, so please take what is useful and ignore the rest.
The cover letter posted earlier shows good technical knowledge, but doesn't actually say much about you or your ambitions. It reads as a list of stuff previously done for someone else. A sentence or two on what you want to do next, and therefore what you'll bring to the new company (possibly even why that company or role) wouldn't go amiss - don't make it any longer though.
Interview technique is a thing. Lots out there to read up on regards talking speed, tone, intonation, smiling, remembering names, dress code (role and industry appropriate), making a good impression, making sure you know all about the company (read the annual report...all of it, not just the summary...for an idea on strategic direction) etc - if you haven’t been reading up and this isn't teaching to suck eggs then fire up Google and start reading!
With regards prep, I've always spent some time writing down about half a dozen (or slightly more) key achievements that a) I'm proud of b) were mostly mine and c) that I can use to demonstrate a number of the attributes that the target role / company is looking for (you should know this going in - from the Job Description, plus a look at the company behaviours etc from their website, if a large company). Google typical competency based Interview questions for your field and test yourself on being able to concisely answer them with your examples, allowing 10 mins or less for each. Examples that show a strategic mindset a bonus.
For each you should have a clear view before you start answering exactly what message you want to leave them with - That time you had a difficult technical challenge because the Internets all fell over in the server room, and you ensured through your passion for mentoring others that the new grad was able to use the experience to learn the order they needed to all be picked up again in... (more subtle obviously, but you get the point).
Practice, practice and practice again until your answers roll off the tounge, naturally, and the three to five seconds of silence that it takes you to start your answer in the real scenario (that you'll want the Interviewer to be thinking you're spending internalising the question) will simply be you counting down for dramatic effect as you prepare to answer.
Standard advice about making sure you have an example where you made a mistake and learnt from it too...
To many the above will seem unnecessary. However,
for many competitve roles, if you’ve not been doing the above, rest assured that the candidate interviewing for the same position as you who's in next will have been...
Once you know you're on top of your prep, and you know that you know your specialism inside out, you can relax a bit and try to have fun with the experience (which will come across well).
YMMV etc.
Edited by Previous on Thursday 12th August 01:16
TheAngryDog said:
Another interview and another rejection.
I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but are you sure you look presentable? I'm assuming these interviews are taking place over zoom or similar, but only Boris Johnson could get a job with his haircut. Everyone else needs to make some sort of effort before getting a new role. Make sure you've shaved or that your facial hair is neat and tidy. And if you have a lockdown mullet, have it seen to. I don't know how you sound but I wouldn't want to hire anyone who uses "like" excessively, or "somefing", "innit" or even "sat" for a professional role unless they were head and shoulders above the competition in terms of experience or recommendation.LunarOne said:
TheAngryDog said:
Another interview and another rejection.
I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but are you sure you look presentable? I'm assuming these interviews are taking place over zoom or similar, but only Boris Johnson could get a job with his haircut. Everyone else needs to make some sort of effort before getting a new role. Make sure you've shaved or that your facial hair is neat and tidy. And if you have a lockdown mullet, have it seen to. I don't know how you sound but I wouldn't want to hire anyone who uses "like" excessively, or "somefing", "innit" or even "sat" for a professional role unless they were head and shoulders above the competition in terms of experience or recommendation.My issue seems to be that I lack experience. The most recent one was very much BS and I just don't think my face fitted.
spikeyhead said:
TheAngryDog said:
Another interview and another rejection.
Where abouts are you?There's probably someone on here near to you that can give you some practice interviews. It's a skill that can be learned, but it does need practice.
"The most recent one was very much BS and I just don't think my face fitted."
Have you read back through your posts? They are all like this, you're the victim, constantly. Do you think you're exhibiting the wrong attitude in interviews? Because if you haven't noticed how you come across on here, it's very likely you're giving off a vibe in person too.
Have you read back through your posts? They are all like this, you're the victim, constantly. Do you think you're exhibiting the wrong attitude in interviews? Because if you haven't noticed how you come across on here, it's very likely you're giving off a vibe in person too.
okgo said:
"The most recent one was very much BS and I just don't think my face fitted."
Have you read back through your posts? They are all like this, you're the victim, constantly. Do you think you're exhibiting the wrong attitude in interviews? Because if you haven't noticed how you come across on here, it's very likely you're giving off a vibe in person too.
I don't think I am the victim at all, but I can see how that may come across. I know my failings, I know what I need to improve on and I know certain decisions that I have made during my working life have got me where I am today, rather than where I could have been. Have you read back through your posts? They are all like this, you're the victim, constantly. Do you think you're exhibiting the wrong attitude in interviews? Because if you haven't noticed how you come across on here, it's very likely you're giving off a vibe in person too.
I'd like to think that I come across well in interviews, but I aren't the best judge of that.
TheAngryDog said:
okgo said:
"The most recent one was very much BS and I just don't think my face fitted."
Have you read back through your posts? They are all like this, you're the victim, constantly. Do you think you're exhibiting the wrong attitude in interviews? Because if you haven't noticed how you come across on here, it's very likely you're giving off a vibe in person too.
I don't think I am the victim at all, but I can see how that may come across. I know my failings, I know what I need to improve on and I know certain decisions that I have made during my working life have got me where I am today, rather than where I could have been. Have you read back through your posts? They are all like this, you're the victim, constantly. Do you think you're exhibiting the wrong attitude in interviews? Because if you haven't noticed how you come across on here, it's very likely you're giving off a vibe in person too.
I'd like to think that I come across well in interviews, but I aren't the best judge of that.
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