Toilet breaks, right to have a drink - at work
Discussion
Breadvan73 said:
You suggested that human rights are engaged by your situation. You've received free and correct legal advice from me and others above that they aren't, to which I have added a general observation that human rights arguments are sadly discredited when misapplied to inappropriate contexts.
Ok. I wasn't aware that it was legal advice as it was worded like personal opinion or interpretation - usually the case, hence why I was after citations.I don't know you, or your profession, as you me. So when someone says something I cannot know if it is official/legal advice or not. Again, why I was after citations.
Besides which, I'm looking for ammunition, so words on a forum are useless, another reason for citations.
So 30 min breaks in 8 hours is official. Ok thanks for that. Citation?
Breadvan73 said:
Also, the x litres of water a day thing is a number plucked from the air. You should drink enough to keep you hydrated, relative to your activity level and food intake, not some arbitrary fixed amount. Ask a sports doctor about this (I just did - he's my brother). There you are: free lawyer, free doctor. Big kisses!
2.9L a day (2.2L for women) is not a figure randomly plucked out of the air to "generate a case". It is an official health guideline by the DoH, SACN and the FSA (my evening profession means I should know this), amongst others, but I am aware it is a general guideline - inside the standard deviation. Alas, this is apparently not the same as a human(e) right... ho-hum.
Ask your doctor bother how many litres of water it takes to rehydrate someone who is dehydrated (3-4 or lower on the hydration scale) - both of which are conditions that can be proven on the spot with urine tests - and ask him how one would reliably and repeatedly test for hydration, especially whilst sat at a desk. Seeing as he is available you don't need to hear it from me.
Chortle; I shall always call him "Doctor Bother" from now on.
My job is stated in my profile. The original version of the Working Time Regs is, here, but NB they have been amended lots of times (the amendments are all on the gov website too), and you would need a paysite to read them in their current form:-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/3372/conte...
I can show you a link to the ECHR as well if you like (or you can find it on google in a nanosecond or two), or you can take it from me that not getting a coffee or toilet break engages no legally protected human right.
My job is stated in my profile. The original version of the Working Time Regs is, here, but NB they have been amended lots of times (the amendments are all on the gov website too), and you would need a paysite to read them in their current form:-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/3372/conte...
I can show you a link to the ECHR as well if you like (or you can find it on google in a nanosecond or two), or you can take it from me that not getting a coffee or toilet break engages no legally protected human right.
Edited by Breadvan73 on Tuesday 5th July 11:47
Direct.gov.uk said:
Rest breaks - a break during your working day
As an adult worker (over 18), you will normally have the right to a 20 minute rest break if you are expected to work more than six hours at a stretch.
A lunch or coffee break can count as your rest break. Additional breaks might be given by your contract of employment. There is no statutory right to 'smoking breaks'.
The requirements are:
* the break must be in one block
* it cannot be taken off one end of the working day - it must be somewhere in the middle
* you are allowed to spend it away from the place on your employer's premises where you work
* your employer can say when the break must be taken, as long as it meets these conditions
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/W...As an adult worker (over 18), you will normally have the right to a 20 minute rest break if you are expected to work more than six hours at a stretch.
A lunch or coffee break can count as your rest break. Additional breaks might be given by your contract of employment. There is no statutory right to 'smoking breaks'.
The requirements are:
* the break must be in one block
* it cannot be taken off one end of the working day - it must be somewhere in the middle
* you are allowed to spend it away from the place on your employer's premises where you work
* your employer can say when the break must be taken, as long as it meets these conditions
HSE said:
Drinking water
An adequate supply of high-quality drinking water, with an upward drinking jet or suitable cups, should be provided. Water should only be provided in refillable enclosed containers where it cannot be obtained directly from a mains supply. The containers should be refilled at least daily (unless they are chilled water dispensers where the containers are returned to the supplier for refilling). Bottled water/water dispensing systems may still be provided as a secondary source of drinking water. Drinking water does not have to be marked unless there is a significant risk of people drinking non-drinking water.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg244.pdfAn adequate supply of high-quality drinking water, with an upward drinking jet or suitable cups, should be provided. Water should only be provided in refillable enclosed containers where it cannot be obtained directly from a mains supply. The containers should be refilled at least daily (unless they are chilled water dispensers where the containers are returned to the supplier for refilling). Bottled water/water dispensing systems may still be provided as a secondary source of drinking water. Drinking water does not have to be marked unless there is a significant risk of people drinking non-drinking water.
mattikake said:
2.9L a day (2.2L for women) is not a figure randomly plucked out of the air to "generate a case". It is an official health guideline by the DoH, SACN and the FSA (my evening profession means I should know this), amongst others, but I am aware it is a general guideline - inside the standard deviation.
Alas, this is apparently not the same as a human(e) right... ho-hum.
Does your employer prevent you from drinking water at home?Alas, this is apparently not the same as a human(e) right... ho-hum.
500ml with breakfast
500ml with lunch
500ml with dinner
500ml on your desk as you start work
500ml refill as you go back to work after lunch
Only another 400ml to squeeze in to your day.
Bloody hell relax OP. If you don't like it then discuss with employer/Manager over what is considered fair and reasonable and agree or work somewhere else.
Like British Leyland.
The problem in larger companies is that some people take the piss, long toilet breaks, fag breaks, drink breaks, early morning snacks, afternoon tea, starting 10mins late, shutting down their workstations 10 mins early, even surfing and posting on Pistonheads breaks. It looses masses of productivity.
Not you of course because you sound like an amazing employee, but some do.
I tell you what, what about 2 additional 15 mins breaks a day but they are unpaid or staff increase their hours by 30 mins a day to cover the lost time.
I used to work with someone who claimed she needed to have a "snack" to keep her blood sugar levels up during the day - Doctors orders. Her daily "snack" was a baked potato with various trimmings that she would spend 10mins cooking and preparing before eating for another 15mins while readigna magazine, all of this outside of her 1 hour lunch break and she honestly though this was acceptable, even when challenged.
Like British Leyland.
The problem in larger companies is that some people take the piss, long toilet breaks, fag breaks, drink breaks, early morning snacks, afternoon tea, starting 10mins late, shutting down their workstations 10 mins early, even surfing and posting on Pistonheads breaks. It looses masses of productivity.
Not you of course because you sound like an amazing employee, but some do.
I tell you what, what about 2 additional 15 mins breaks a day but they are unpaid or staff increase their hours by 30 mins a day to cover the lost time.
I used to work with someone who claimed she needed to have a "snack" to keep her blood sugar levels up during the day - Doctors orders. Her daily "snack" was a baked potato with various trimmings that she would spend 10mins cooking and preparing before eating for another 15mins while readigna magazine, all of this outside of her 1 hour lunch break and she honestly though this was acceptable, even when challenged.
mattikake said:
Sitting down kills humans. It's a fact. No-one has the right to impose detremental conditions on someone, least of all because some have it worse than I do.
This is another suggestion you probably won't like - sorry! When working in another large utility call centre, people who didn't want to sit all day were able to stand and take calls. While there are obviously practicalities about reaching a desk-height keyboard / monitor, you can stand / sit / get up and stretch wherever possible? As far as I remember, standing was sometimes even encouraged due to the body being lengthened and the timbre of the voice becoming more pleasant to the caller at the other end of the phone.I've maybe missed it somewhere (in which case, apologies) but have you been told why the rules are changing regarding breaks and drinks etc?
^ I stand up as much as possible with such fitness/health facts in mind (typing is harder standing up though, and certainly slower. If I can't get to around 40 words per min I have no chance) but I get told off for standing up by some people. I think because it looks like I'm not working, or looks unprofessional, or "weird" and some don't like it "because" (read: no logical reason at all). For every 1 reason someone says sit down, I can give 10 to stand up, but that's not good enough to the "because" cattle. You know the type from some on PH - in the face of overwhelming evidence, sense and reason, they get emotional and make out good arguments to be confrontational, where of course the reverse is true.
Anyway, thanks for the info peeps. I get no time at all to browse the web for such things here. And I really do mean no time.
So for the threat to cut our humane time, the overt reason is because some have been taking liberties. In reality nothing has changed at all in that area. The real reason is steady head cut of half the team (people leaving and not being replaced) and now we're missing our stats, so our time gets noticed. To employ more people cuts into profitability of course, so it's much easier for a some to hammer their staff than actually get more people in and/or argue our case... usual form.
Given all that, I reckon I have every right to feel personally offended via the OP.
So in short, it's a bit of a bummer.
Anyway, thanks for the info peeps. I get no time at all to browse the web for such things here. And I really do mean no time.
So for the threat to cut our humane time, the overt reason is because some have been taking liberties. In reality nothing has changed at all in that area. The real reason is steady head cut of half the team (people leaving and not being replaced) and now we're missing our stats, so our time gets noticed. To employ more people cuts into profitability of course, so it's much easier for a some to hammer their staff than actually get more people in and/or argue our case... usual form.
Given all that, I reckon I have every right to feel personally offended via the OP.
So in short, it's a bit of a bummer.
15 mins per working day is roughly 68 man hours a year per person - almost two paid working weeks - which is a lot of money for a small/struggling business.
Does your workplace have a way of measuring performance? Number of widgets made, number of minutes billed etc.?
This might highlight other areas to be improved, or might show after a trial period that cutting your breaks down does not actually make for a more productive environment.
Does your workplace have a way of measuring performance? Number of widgets made, number of minutes billed etc.?
This might highlight other areas to be improved, or might show after a trial period that cutting your breaks down does not actually make for a more productive environment.
Could the OP get Westminster and Chelsea council to provide incontinence pads? In all seriousness though, what actually would happen if the OP wet or soiled himself at his desk, from the employer's POV and in a legal context - surely there is a right to maintain some semblance of dignity?
And how will it affect concentration if the OP is desperate for the toilet? Will that aid productivity and good customer relations?
SD
And how will it affect concentration if the OP is desperate for the toilet? Will that aid productivity and good customer relations?
SD
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