Contractors: IR35 & general discussion
Discussion
Countdown said:
A substitute wouldn’t even be able to get into the building due to security. He’s being employed specifically based on his skills and experience.
Which may still be entirely fine and legitimately outside of IR35. If there is no mutuality of obligation and he exerts direction and control over his own work then he's most likely outside.Lord Marylebone said:
Countdown said:
Lord Marylebone said:
The biggest one I have worked for so far is 12,000 units. That’s the one where I (and another consultant) have been delivering their development programme.
Their development director left, and their head of development has been off with stress for 12 months.
Prior to all that, their department as a whole has not managed to deliver any notable amount of housing in 4 years or so for numerous reasons. Staff sickness, and a revolving door of people leaving and joining the department. Posts left unfilled for months.
Would the fact that you’re filling in for a permanent post not suggest the role was inside IR35?Their development director left, and their head of development has been off with stress for 12 months.
Prior to all that, their department as a whole has not managed to deliver any notable amount of housing in 4 years or so for numerous reasons. Staff sickness, and a revolving door of people leaving and joining the department. Posts left unfilled for months.
As with all my assignments I can pull the plug whenever I want, so with that one maybe it's best to call it a day, even though I haven't finished.
Bit of a pisser though.
I guess going forward I'll just have to be more picky and chose things are are short, time limited projects.
They go for low hanging fruit, to go after someone with multiple contracts means having to investigate each contract (as each contract is judged inside or outside seperately), and so need to deal with each client's legal department to get any info on working practices and so on.
Why would they go after you when they have much easier pickings- say that IT pm who has been at that one bank for 20 years, you are running more like a business than many.
Make sure your contracts have the right wording and clauses in, make sure your working practices don't match perms and so on.
Edited by hyphen on Saturday 15th February 20:45
hyphen said:
Lord Marylebone said:
Countdown said:
Lord Marylebone said:
The biggest one I have worked for so far is 12,000 units. That’s the one where I (and another consultant) have been delivering their development programme.
Their development director left, and their head of development has been off with stress for 12 months.
Prior to all that, their department as a whole has not managed to deliver any notable amount of housing in 4 years or so for numerous reasons. Staff sickness, and a revolving door of people leaving and joining the department. Posts left unfilled for months.
Would the fact that you’re filling in for a permanent post not suggest the role was inside IR35?Their development director left, and their head of development has been off with stress for 12 months.
Prior to all that, their department as a whole has not managed to deliver any notable amount of housing in 4 years or so for numerous reasons. Staff sickness, and a revolving door of people leaving and joining the department. Posts left unfilled for months.
As with all my assignments I can pull the plug whenever I want, so with that one maybe it's best to call it a day, even though I haven't finished.
Bit of a pisser though.
I guess going forward I'll just have to be more picky and chose things are are short, time limited projects.
They go for low hanging fruit, to go after someone with multiple contracts means having to investigate each contract (as each contract is judged inside or outside seperately), and so need to deal with each client's legal department to get any info on working practices and so on.
Why would they go after you when they have much easier pickings- say that IT pm who has been at that one bank for 20 years, you are running more like a business than many.
Make sure your contracts have the right wording and clauses in, make sure your working practices don't match perms and so on.
Edited by hyphen on Saturday 15th February 20:45
Just have to see how it all plays out in practice.
Countdown and Hyphen, thanks for your input.
GT03ROB said:
Exactly why the "we going to FO abroad" are going to be in for a shock. It's not that straightforward. If you are a genuine contractor it will be a lot easier.... but then you will be outside IR35 anyhow. Come to a 'stan you will find its basically umbrella company, UK rates or less, taxes your problem, nothing offset, less benefits than a staffer. And can the positions be filled...you bet.
Not exactly true, a lot of companies are just going blanket even though their own QDOS assessments have shown the position to be outside IR35.This is where their is a real problem as the HMRC guidelines are so woolly the companies are taking the easy (at the moment) way out.
tighnamara said:
Not exactly true, a lot of companies are just going blanket even though their own QDOS assessments have shown the position to be outside IR35.
This is where their is a real problem as the HMRC guidelines are so woolly the companies are taking the easy (at the moment) way out.
This is where their is a real problem as the HMRC guidelines are so woolly the companies are taking the easy (at the moment) way out.
tighnamara said:
Not exactly true, a lot of companies are just going blanket even though their own QDOS assessments have shown the position to be outside IR35.
This is where their is a real problem as the HMRC guidelines are so woolly the companies are taking the easy (at the moment) way out.
I imagine the wage bill is going down too, so it's in the companies interest to play hard ball and shift as many as they can to perm.This is where their is a real problem as the HMRC guidelines are so woolly the companies are taking the easy (at the moment) way out.
Olivera said:
Which may still be entirely fine and legitimately outside of IR35. If there is no mutuality of obligation and he exerts direction and control over his own work then he's most likely outside.
A Development Director sits directly in the “Chain of Command” between the Chief Exec and the Development team. They’ll be a key member of the SMT and working very closely with the Assets & Investment Director and subject to the same levels of control and direction. C&D at that level is almost minimal enough as to be negligible (assuming the CEO isnt a micro-managing control freak)Also the MOO is (IMO) something of a red herring. Agency temps have zero MOO, it doesn’t make them self-employed contractors. To turn that on it’s head, would having even a 1 week Contract automatically make it inside IR35?
Gad-Westy said:
mondeoman said:
Gad-Westy said:
RammyMP said:
A mate of mine has been self employed with the same firm for 15 years, currently he’s on £7500 a month with paid holiday. He was called in last week and offered £69k to go perm which he was told was the same cost to the company with pension and N.I. payments. He’s not happy about it but hasn’t much choice, mortgage to pay etc.
But in this example, unless the exact circumstances are highly unusual, your friend has been inside IR35 for 15 years and should have been paying tax accordingly. Which means that his net income should have been equivalent to a salary of £73.5k. So a salary of £69k shouldn't change the picture much. But in reality, I assume your friend has been paying tax as if he is outside of IR35 and is about to take a big hit in take home. But the bigger worry for him might be when HMRC come sniffing later on as it really won't look good and 15 years of underpaid taxes is going to be a whopping amount. Countdown said:
Olivera said:
Which may still be entirely fine and legitimately outside of IR35. If there is no mutuality of obligation and he exerts direction and control over his own work then he's most likely outside.
A Development Director sits directly in the “Chain of Command” between the Chief Exec and the Development team. They’ll be a key member of the SMT and working very closely with the Assets & Investment Director and subject to the same levels of control and direction. C&D at that level is almost minimal enough as to be negligible (assuming the CEO isnt a micro-managing control freak)Also the MOO is (IMO) something of a red herring. Agency temps have zero MOO, it doesn’t make them self-employed contractors. To turn that on it’s head, would having even a 1 week Contract automatically make it inside IR35?
mondeoman said:
To me it really is more about direction and control than anything else. Client provides clear deliverables, you deliver then in whichever way you feel is appropriate. The required result is deliverables met.
In my experience nearly all roles at senior management (and a lot of roles at middle management) have very little or even NO D&C. If D&C is the only (or main) basis for judging whether a role is inside or outside IR35 then CEOs would argue that they are ALWAYS outside IR35 and therefore should be paid gross. That’s why (IMO) you have to look at the role as a whole and not just one or two factors.With regards to Lord M’s role, it does sound to me like he’s effectively an Interim Development Director, and an intrinsic part of the organisation. I would guess that he’s line-managing certain individuals, overseeing the work of a team, representing the HA in meetings with external bodies. I cant think of anything that would differentiate him from his fellow Directors in terms of what they do on a day to day basis. So why would that role be outside IR35?
Countdown said:
So why would that role be outside IR35?
I'd be interested in your views on why plumbers, electricians, gardeners, etc., are not inside IR35 and disguised employees of their various clients. My gardeners are a husband and wife team, operating a small business. They attend my house regularly, and generally I let them get on with things but sometimes tell them to turn their attention to that flower bed over there that needs weeding, or to trim back that bush over there, in addition to the usual grass cutting.
Am I their employer? Do I need to be giving them PAYE pay slips and paying employer's National Insurance for them?
As an interim change director I do not receive direction and control, I do not career manage anyone (just task), I don’t take part in any work events, i work to deliver outcomes, I propose how this will be done, I don’t have to be at a clients site, i don’t get a parking space, don’t drink their coffee (yuck) etc etc etc.
tighnamara said:
GT03ROB said:
Exactly why the "we going to FO abroad" are going to be in for a shock. It's not that straightforward. If you are a genuine contractor it will be a lot easier.... but then you will be outside IR35 anyhow. Come to a 'stan you will find its basically umbrella company, UK rates or less, taxes your problem, nothing offset, less benefits than a staffer. And can the positions be filled...you bet.
Not exactly true, a lot of companies are just going blanket even though their own QDOS assessments have shown the position to be outside IR35.This is where their is a real problem as the HMRC guidelines are so woolly the companies are taking the easy (at the moment) way out.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Countdown said:
So why would that role be outside IR35?
I'd be interested in your views on why plumbers, electricians, gardeners, etc., are not inside IR35 and disguised employees of their various clients. My gardeners are a husband and wife team, operating a small business. They attend my house regularly, and generally I let them get on with things but sometimes tell them to turn their attention to that flower bed over there that needs weeding, or to trim back that bush over there, in addition to the usual grass cutting.
Am I their employer? Do I need to be giving them PAYE pay slips and paying employer's National Insurance for them?
Gazzab said:
As an interim change director I do not receive direction and control, I do not career manage anyone (just task), I don’t take part in any work events, i work to deliver outcomes, I propose how this will be done, I don’t have to be at a clients site, i don’t get a parking space, don’t drink their coffee (yuck) etc etc etc.
i am pretty sure you are given specific guidance by whoever you report to, whether it is what you might see as day to day management or not. I am also pretty sure that you are there because of your delivery record (and paid accordingly), which means you are very likely not easily substitutable. If it was only the tasks that needed managing then surely they would get on fine with an army of vanilla project managers and would need a change director, interim or otherwise? I think you're pissing into the wind there mate. Blown2CV said:
just because they feel they are substitutable doesn't mean the client sees it that way either... a few times i have got some i really know and trust in to do some work in the house and they sent some absolute gonk that they have subcontracted. I hired that guy because of the guy, and his expertise.
So suddenly households up and down the country find themselves in an employer-employee relationship with their cleaners and gardeners? And have to worry about NI, payroll, and the like?I'm sure HMRC will take the attitude of "Ah, but those aren't the fish we want to fry" but by your argument, they should.
Blown2CV said:
Gazzab said:
As an interim change director I do not receive direction and control, I do not career manage anyone (just task), I don’t take part in any work events, i work to deliver outcomes, I propose how this will be done, I don’t have to be at a clients site, i don’t get a parking space, don’t drink their coffee (yuck) etc etc etc.
i am pretty sure you are given specific guidance by whoever you report to, whether it is what you might see as day to day management or not. I am also pretty sure that you are there because of your delivery record (and paid accordingly), which means you are very likely not easily substitutable. If it was only the tasks that needed managing then surely they would get on fine with an army of vanilla project managers and would need a change director, interim or otherwise? I think you're pissing into the wind there mate. mondeoman said:
By that criteria, there are never any outside contracts - any contract has specific deliverables, meaning direction has been given, you are controlled by having to deliver those deliverables etc...
Well, quite. By that argument, when you have cable or broadband fitted, the contractors who come round to route the cable into your house and connect it up are your employees, because you direct them where you would like the cable to enter the house and where you would like the box to be sited. You can argue the toss guys, it doesn't matter what matters is how your clients want to define roles moving forward. Some will define roles outside, that may still be arguably In and some will err to caution and define roles In that are arguably out, the reality is its no longer your problem/decision/liability.
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