Muslim prayer breaks at work - fair or not?
Discussion
mybrainhurts said:
The caretaker's house at my old school is now labelled Prayer Room.
As I noticed this, a teenage pupil emerged, wearing a T shirt, printed Soldier of Allah...
I find that quite objectionable...
Last Saturday morning, I saw a twenty something bloke wearing this: http://www.justmuslim.co.uk/shop/solder-of-islam-s...As I noticed this, a teenage pupil emerged, wearing a T shirt, printed Soldier of Allah...
I find that quite objectionable...
He was working at a car service centre and immediately gave me the impression that this place (West Hendon, London) would not like any business from non-muslims.
When I say twenty something, that also refers to his weight in stones (so he must have selected the XXXXXL option when ordering) and the irony is that no army would enroll the idiot at that size.
Either the boss was not present or the company felt this was acceptable.
Would any white Christian wear a Tshirt proclaiming 'Soldier of Jesus' whilst servicing a car in Saudi Arabia?
Don't some companies have policies to make the time up? I also recall that 2 or 3 of the 5 times are outside the normal 9-5 working day. As long as they truly are practising Muslims (ie observe Ramadam, don't drink, go to the Mosque when they can on a Friday), make up the time and are not just abusing the 'rabbit in the diversity headlights' boss I have no problem with it, just like people with kids insisting on their holidays when the kids are off, that bloke who wants to swap to a day shift when Arsenal have an evening match and those odd people who INSIST on having the day of on their birthday. All a matter of lifestle an choice IMHO.
I recall many moons ago, if you were a regular church goer and had been rostered to work a Sunday they let you go in the firms time, and they didn't take the time off your clock card or expect you to work over.
Kermit power said:
I think there's an element of Daily Wailism creeping into some of the replies on here...
First off, for any Muslim to stop work for prayers 5 times in a day, they would have to be working quite exceptionally long shifts! The official times of prayer in London today were 04:41, 06:35, 12:56, 16:23, 19:15 and 21:04.
Secondly, in my experience, Muslims take no more than 5-10 minutes to say their prayers. Given the amount of tea breaks, fag breaks, fresh air breaks and the like that most people take during the working day, Muslims are hardly taking the piss if they take a few minutes in their lunch break and in the afternoon for prayers, are they?
Thirdly, it might be argued that people with the conscientiousness to pray on a daily basis - whatever their religion - are generally going to be conscientious in other areas of their lives, and thus possibly inclined to be more hard-working overall.
Finally, regardless of the employee, the happier they are, the harder they are likely to work. It would be a pretty short-sighted employer who pissed off his Muslim employees for the sake of a short break for prayers.
My personal experience of all of this was when visiting a reseller in Egypt. If prayers occurred during a meeting, then those who wished to pray did so, and those of us who didn't just took a quick tea break. It really didn't inconvenience anyone in the slightest degree.
Common sense factual answer on PH's shocker! It's a non-issue to those but the intolerant & looking to blame Muslims for all the ills in the world. First off, for any Muslim to stop work for prayers 5 times in a day, they would have to be working quite exceptionally long shifts! The official times of prayer in London today were 04:41, 06:35, 12:56, 16:23, 19:15 and 21:04.
Secondly, in my experience, Muslims take no more than 5-10 minutes to say their prayers. Given the amount of tea breaks, fag breaks, fresh air breaks and the like that most people take during the working day, Muslims are hardly taking the piss if they take a few minutes in their lunch break and in the afternoon for prayers, are they?
Thirdly, it might be argued that people with the conscientiousness to pray on a daily basis - whatever their religion - are generally going to be conscientious in other areas of their lives, and thus possibly inclined to be more hard-working overall.
Finally, regardless of the employee, the happier they are, the harder they are likely to work. It would be a pretty short-sighted employer who pissed off his Muslim employees for the sake of a short break for prayers.
My personal experience of all of this was when visiting a reseller in Egypt. If prayers occurred during a meeting, then those who wished to pray did so, and those of us who didn't just took a quick tea break. It really didn't inconvenience anyone in the slightest degree.
The Muslims who´ve worked for me have always been flexible. If a meeting is planned at the time of a prayer, they´ve almost always just carried on and prayed afterwards. To me this is a non-issue as all of the Muslims I know are flexible. The biggest challenge was which day will Ramadam end on and which day off will they have... still not a big issue.
Fair? I don´see why not, but I´ve usually worked in large office organisations. Friday has a block booking for 2 hours over lunch where most went to the mosque and then had their lunch. All without exception came in early or worked later to cover this...
T-J-K
Fair? I don´see why not, but I´ve usually worked in large office organisations. Friday has a block booking for 2 hours over lunch where most went to the mosque and then had their lunch. All without exception came in early or worked later to cover this...
T-J-K
Kermit power said:
Given that all full time employees are entitled to lunch breaks and a morning & afternoon break, and also given that Muslim prayers easily fit into this, where exactly are they taking the piss?
As already pointed out these are not required, however if your contract gives you them and your prayer time fits into them then there is no issue whatsoever. My point was a simple one - your employer is boss, if they are within law you do what they ask or leave, they should not have to bend to your wants and needs at all, especially when it comes down to something as unimportant as worshipping an imaginary deity of any colour, creed or kind.Of course an intelligent boss will know that keeping workforce happy leads to much greater productivity, so may wish to make allowances if they wish. As long as the choice is theirs to make then everything is fair - you can choose to work for them or not, they can choose to employ you or not, employee doesn't get to impose their every whimsical want on a business.
Edited by Davi on Wednesday 16th September 09:36
How long does a good pray take? If it's longer than 10 minutes then I'd say they can do it. But I will pay them for 1 hour less because praying isn't going to make me money.
If they only take 5 minutes I'd class them as a fag break.
+2+2 time is what they charge for a taxi! over Christmas /New year!You guys are funny.
What about me? I'm an atheist. Should I work through christmas?
If they only take 5 minutes I'd class them as a fag break.
Shaw Tarse said:
RemaL said:
IL_JDM said:
Targarama said:
We live in a multicultural/racial world. Unless this is a tiny business that can't survive, then yes Muslims should get the time to pray if they want it. Plus relevant Ramadan, Eid time off.
However, when it comes to Christmas, they should not get the same time off that Christians get.
+1However, when it comes to Christmas, they should not get the same time off that Christians get.
Edited by Targarama on Tuesday 15th September 17:39
What about me? I'm an atheist. Should I work through christmas?
Edited by Frankeh on Wednesday 16th September 09:46
i know theres doubt about the validity and accuracy of this article but it is somehow quite a satisfying read...
Chain email a while back said:
Prime Minister John Howard - Australia
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.'
'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'
'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'
'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'
'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,
'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'
Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American and Canadian citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.
Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.'
'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'
'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'
'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'
'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,
'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'
Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American and Canadian citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.
I'm an atheist and non-smoker and it does wind me up a little bit when I see contractors (who are paid by the hour here) spending ages away from their desks either smoking or praying.
One of the muslim fellas (who is actually a friend of mine) agreed with his boss that he would work additional hours to make up for the lost time during Ramadan. But he's still invoiving for these hours!
f
k it, i'm converting to islam...
Of course, the fact that i spend a goodly portion of time on PH is neither here nor there...
One of the muslim fellas (who is actually a friend of mine) agreed with his boss that he would work additional hours to make up for the lost time during Ramadan. But he's still invoiving for these hours!
f
k it, i'm converting to islam... Of course, the fact that i spend a goodly portion of time on PH is neither here nor there...
Any such break is fine in my view, as long as the time is made back up. This goes for anything - your kid is sick and you need to take the afternoon off, no problem, do an hour or two extra next week to make it back up. That's how I used to manage my staff. If everyone has the same treatment, then what's the problem?
Jasandjules said:
This goes for anything - your kid is sick and you need to take the afternoon off, no problem, do an hour or two extra next week to make it back up.
Everywhere I've worked has been like this. If I come in 30 minutes late, I stay 30 minutes longer.
If I work through my lunch break (Which I do every day) I get to leave an hour earlier.
Frankeh said:
Jasandjules said:
This goes for anything - your kid is sick and you need to take the afternoon off, no problem, do an hour or two extra next week to make it back up.
Everywhere I've worked has been like this. If I come in 30 minutes late, I stay 30 minutes longer.
If I work through my lunch break (Which I do every day) I get to leave an hour earlier.
Marf said:
Frankeh said:
Jasandjules said:
This goes for anything - your kid is sick and you need to take the afternoon off, no problem, do an hour or two extra next week to make it back up.
Everywhere I've worked has been like this. If I come in 30 minutes late, I stay 30 minutes longer.
If I work through my lunch break (Which I do every day) I get to leave an hour earlier.
Frankeh said:
Marf said:
Frankeh said:
Jasandjules said:
This goes for anything - your kid is sick and you need to take the afternoon off, no problem, do an hour or two extra next week to make it back up.
Everywhere I've worked has been like this. If I come in 30 minutes late, I stay 30 minutes longer.
If I work through my lunch break (Which I do every day) I get to leave an hour earlier.
I will just point out this kind of stuff if you deny them their rights to do anything?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492407/Hai...
Especially the if you cant do the work then why apply for the job and bugger off answer given here.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492407/Hai...
Especially the if you cant do the work then why apply for the job and bugger off answer given here.
In a production environment, one person praying can stop many others from doing their job for the same length of time, which can be a huge problem. Particularly when so many manufacturers in the UK are competing with Chinese/Polish/Romanian etc companies.
Does anyone know how long a prayer takes?
If they can pray before work, straight after work and just before going to sleep, that only leaves two more prayers (I believe) - which I guess they could do during their scheduled breaks.
Does anyone know how long a prayer takes?
If they can pray before work, straight after work and just before going to sleep, that only leaves two more prayers (I believe) - which I guess they could do during their scheduled breaks.
M400 NBL said:
In a production environment, one person praying can stop many others from doing their job for the same length of time, which can be a huge problem. Particularly when so many manufacturers in the UK are competing with Chinese/Polish/Romanian etc companies.
Does anyone know how long a prayer takes?
If they can pray before work, straight after work and just before going to sleep, that only leaves two more prayers (I believe) - which I guess they could do during their scheduled breaks.
The longest one takes place after sundown (corrently about 9.30pm) and could be done in about 20 minutesDoes anyone know how long a prayer takes?
If they can pray before work, straight after work and just before going to sleep, that only leaves two more prayers (I believe) - which I guess they could do during their scheduled breaks.
the 2 that happen during 9-5 could both be done in 10 minutes if that and one of them occur roughly around lunctime.
as someone has said, the 5 times are spread throughout the day and likely only 2 of them would affect a 9-5er.
I've worked with a few muslims, the most devout one was a woman, she used to time her lunch hour to do one of the prayers and the one in the afternon used to take 5-10 minutes, if it was just me in the room it was fine she could do it in front of me, but if any men were in the vicinity she had to go into an unused office and shut the door, then she'd have a cup of tea at her desk, no big deal.
A lot of the time even though most of the other men were muslim they would absent mindedly touch her and then she would have to fly of into the toilets to cleanse herself thoroughly and the amount of loo roll she got through drying herself was extortionate. In the end it would be me that shouted "don't touch her" if anyone came wandering over to give her anything.
She always took EID and Christmas as holiday, no different to anyone else.
It really doesn't bother me people taking fag or prayer breaks, I'm too worried about getting all my work done to be worrying about anyone else.
A lot of the time even though most of the other men were muslim they would absent mindedly touch her and then she would have to fly of into the toilets to cleanse herself thoroughly and the amount of loo roll she got through drying herself was extortionate. In the end it would be me that shouted "don't touch her" if anyone came wandering over to give her anything.
She always took EID and Christmas as holiday, no different to anyone else.
It really doesn't bother me people taking fag or prayer breaks, I'm too worried about getting all my work done to be worrying about anyone else.
Tuscanless Ali said:
A lot of the time even though most of the other men were muslim they would absent mindedly touch her and then she would have to fly of into the toilets to cleanse herself thoroughly and the amount of loo roll she got through drying herself was extortionate. In the end it would be me that shouted "don't touch her" if anyone came wandering over to give her anything.
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