Contractors: IR35 & general discussion
Discussion
Olivera said:
Autopilot said:
If I had multiple contracts, I would of course do the same if investigated, demonstrate that my business has multiple customers because I chose that and I'm allowed to, I'm a business and not subject to an employee contract.
I guess the issue is going to be that after April 2020, multiple contracts won't mean anything as us contractors don't get any say in the status other then by not going for any Inside IR35 contracts
Multiple contracts mean absolutely *nothing* just now when attempting to prove IR35 status. Whether you have 1 or 100 clients makes no difference, each contract is assessed individually without reference to the others.I guess the issue is going to be that after April 2020, multiple contracts won't mean anything as us contractors don't get any say in the status other then by not going for any Inside IR35 contracts
Autopilot said:
Gecko1978 said:
oh I also have more than 1 client at one time its f
king tiring to be honest but if that is what it takes to add to the outside IR35 status happy to.
It doesn't add to being outside IR35, it just means that each of your engagements needs the end client to determine whether that particular engagement is in or out. It's perfectly feasible to have one contract inside, one out, both in, both out etc. The IR35 status isn't about you, it's about the specific engagement and the T's and C's that surround it.king tiring to be honest but if that is what it takes to add to the outside IR35 status happy to. Lloyds have today announced that all PSC contractors will be communicated by 8th October with news that they will be offered 3 choices a) Leave b) Go Perm c) Go via umbrella company. Following which a short data capture session will be held with Line managers to capture contractor preference. Decisions will then be relayed back to the contractors starting from 9th November. All PSC contractors will need to convert to Perm or Umbrella by 29th Feb or leave the group by 31/3. There is NO CEST assessment being undertaken. Nobody will be deemed IN or OUTSIDE IR35, this is simply being communicated as a new method of engagement for PSCs. Oh. and there are NO rate increases to be offered to compensate for lower take home pay
so all the debate about CEST has been a waste of time, we are toast but I have always said its been a great 10 years but looks like it's over. My guess is longer term there will be an new equivalent and that will be where many of us end up.
ps I have contacted at lloyds and the above does not surprise me.
so all the debate about CEST has been a waste of time, we are toast but I have always said its been a great 10 years but looks like it's over. My guess is longer term there will be an new equivalent and that will be where many of us end up.
ps I have contacted at lloyds and the above does not surprise me.
B_Tank88 said:
Stupid petition title. IR35 has been around for 20 years. Gives more ammo to the people who believe (and rightly so) it isn't being applied properly.Gecko1978 said:
Lloyds have today announced that all PSC contractors will be communicated by 8th October with news that they will be offered 3 choices a) Leave b) Go Perm c) Go via umbrella company. Following which a short data capture session will be held with Line managers to capture contractor preference. Decisions will then be relayed back to the contractors starting from 9th November. All PSC contractors will need to convert to Perm or Umbrella by 29th Feb or leave the group by 31/3. There is NO CEST assessment being undertaken. Nobody will be deemed IN or OUTSIDE IR35, this is simply being communicated as a new method of engagement for PSCs. Oh. and there are NO rate increases to be offered to compensate for lower take home pay
so all the debate about CEST has been a waste of time, we are toast but I have always said its been a great 10 years but looks like it's over. My guess is longer term there will be an new equivalent and that will be where many of us end up.
ps I have contacted at lloyds and the above does not surprise me.
Will they lower the rate offered as well?so all the debate about CEST has been a waste of time, we are toast but I have always said its been a great 10 years but looks like it's over. My guess is longer term there will be an new equivalent and that will be where many of us end up.
ps I have contacted at lloyds and the above does not surprise me.
https://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/umbrella_co...
worsy said:
Gecko1978 said:
Lloyds have today announced that all PSC contractors will be communicated by 8th October with news that they will be offered 3 choices a) Leave b) Go Perm c) Go via umbrella company. Following which a short data capture session will be held with Line managers to capture contractor preference. Decisions will then be relayed back to the contractors starting from 9th November. All PSC contractors will need to convert to Perm or Umbrella by 29th Feb or leave the group by 31/3. There is NO CEST assessment being undertaken. Nobody will be deemed IN or OUTSIDE IR35, this is simply being communicated as a new method of engagement for PSCs. Oh. and there are NO rate increases to be offered to compensate for lower take home pay
so all the debate about CEST has been a waste of time, we are toast but I have always said its been a great 10 years but looks like it's over. My guess is longer term there will be an new equivalent and that will be where many of us end up.
ps I have contacted at lloyds and the above does not surprise me.
Will they lower the rate offered as well?so all the debate about CEST has been a waste of time, we are toast but I have always said its been a great 10 years but looks like it's over. My guess is longer term there will be an new equivalent and that will be where many of us end up.
ps I have contacted at lloyds and the above does not surprise me.
https://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/umbrella_co...
But if this is the only option then free market will still lead to competition so that all in rate at lloyds might be £100 a day but at another firm it might be £130 etc. That will become I suspect the new norm.
Barclays aren't even offering the umbrella option:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/01/ir35_barc...
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/01/ir35_barc...
I guess there's going to be a mass exodus of ltd. company contractors next Spring, if only to avoid tax investigations from changing from ltd. co. to umbrella or staff working.
I assume this will result in it being very difficult to find any decent staff or umbrella work due to the sheer competition of thousands of contractors searching for work at the same time.
Perhaps it's worth jumping ship early, albeit sacrificing 6 months of guaranteed, tax-efficient income?
I assume this will result in it being very difficult to find any decent staff or umbrella work due to the sheer competition of thousands of contractors searching for work at the same time.
Perhaps it's worth jumping ship early, albeit sacrificing 6 months of guaranteed, tax-efficient income?
Jumping ship depends on a whole host of factors there is not a one size fits all solution and perhaps that is telling of how we have needed up hear.
I actually think solutions might be more radical like industry moves or looking at working overseas etc which will be a tough if not impossible for many.
I wish every one luck with 2020 but it does seem HMRC have won the day as firms are taking the opportunity to cut costs so CEST is just a waste of time
I actually think solutions might be more radical like industry moves or looking at working overseas etc which will be a tough if not impossible for many.
I wish every one luck with 2020 but it does seem HMRC have won the day as firms are taking the opportunity to cut costs so CEST is just a waste of time
Gecko1978 said:
I wish every one luck with 2020 but it does seem HMRC have won the day as firms are taking the opportunity to cut costs so CEST is just a waste of time
It’s not about cutting costs, if it were, companies wouldn’t use contractors in the first place as they are more expensive than perm. It’s about carrying financial risk as the responsibility for determining employment status is now on the employer/client, not the contractor. If you use a lot of contractors, the penalty for non payment of tax can run into hundreds of millions £. No sane CFO wants to carry that risk which is why large businesses like banks are adopting the stance they are.Anyway, I thought contractors did it for the lifestyle, not the money?
Before this all even kicked off, I had been thinking about the possibility of moving to perm at my current client - I still wouldn't mind but I just have no faith that HMRC won't do a bunch of retrospective investigations and I think that moving fwithout a significant break (and change in role) is asking for trouble.
But what constitutes a significant break? 1 month? 6 months? A year? More?
But what constitutes a significant break? 1 month? 6 months? A year? More?
pincher said:
Before this all even kicked off, I had been thinking about the possibility of moving to perm at my current client - I still wouldn't mind but I just have no faith that HMRC won't do a bunch of retrospective investigations and I think that moving fwithout a significant break (and change in role) is asking for trouble.
But what constitutes a significant break? 1 month? 6 months? A year? More?
If you were staying as a contractor but transitioning from outside to inside on the same contract, I’d be more worried. Going from contractor to perm is entirely different which is why Lloyds are offering it as an option. My opinion is HMRC are more concerned about closing loopholes and compliance over retrospective revenge.But what constitutes a significant break? 1 month? 6 months? A year? More?
Outside to inside at the same client - no chance.
Outside to inside at a different client - no problem.
I just think that contract to perm at the same client (even in a different role, albeit similar to the contract role) leaves you open to an accusation by HMRC that you were inside all along. I know they have said they aren’t going to be doing retrospectives but I just don’t believe it. It might take 5 years or more before they do it but I think they will, eventually.
Outside to inside at a different client - no problem.
I just think that contract to perm at the same client (even in a different role, albeit similar to the contract role) leaves you open to an accusation by HMRC that you were inside all along. I know they have said they aren’t going to be doing retrospectives but I just don’t believe it. It might take 5 years or more before they do it but I think they will, eventually.
wormus said:
Gecko1978 said:
I wish every one luck with 2020 but it does seem HMRC have won the day as firms are taking the opportunity to cut costs so CEST is just a waste of time
It’s not about cutting costs, if it were, companies wouldn’t use contractors in the first place as they are more expensive than perm. It’s about carrying financial risk as the responsibility for determining employment status is now on the employer/client, not the contractor. If you use a lot of contractors, the penalty for non payment of tax can run into hundreds of millions £. No sane CFO wants to carry that risk which is why large businesses like banks are adopting the stance they are.Anyway, I thought contractors did it for the lifestyle, not the money?
One UK / Hong Kong bank managed to fight the US government for years after laundering billions of dollars in drug money. They never admitted guilt paid a fine an got away with it. If they can do that they can also engage properly with third parties but the costs and as you say risks are higher than doing the right thing so why bother, netter to spend money fighting your money laundering case etc.
It is a lifestyle being self employed that is true and I for one don't like being perm its not for me, appraisals, corporate values (which in most cases are lip service things etc). But at the end of the day HMRC has made the rules as such and we are where we are. I hear RBS are about to announce the same which is expected.
There are still choices an options out there but they don't involve me staying working in the way I do in the industry I do. But that is life sometimes you win and sometimes you loose this is just a loss is all.
Gecko1978 said:
but do not think for one moment a large multi national does not have the resouce to write a contract that is CEST compliant.
You can’t write a contract that’s compliant for people who are working as disguised employees, which many contractors are. Working practices determine your status, not the contract. And you cannot beat HMRC as the recent ruling against the two BBC presenters has proven. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theregister.co....Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff