Suspended for facebook comment.
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
It seems to me that they aren't following correct disciplinary procedures.
It will be interesting to hear your report on tomorrow's meeting. That union rep sounds like a waste of space to me. Meeting only 30 minutes before you are hauled up before "the beak" is just not acceptable, to my way of thinking.
I may be totally wrong but I get the feeling they know they've overreacted and want it to go away as quickly as possible.It will be interesting to hear your report on tomorrow's meeting. That union rep sounds like a waste of space to me. Meeting only 30 minutes before you are hauled up before "the beak" is just not acceptable, to my way of thinking.
Jasandjules said:
Ok. So no written invitation to any meeting, no mention of gross misconduct etc? Then it may be a rather less formal affair - however the union rep would indicate to the contrary.
Gross misconduct was mentioned informally at the suspension meeting as something the company could look to accuse me of. Jasandjules said:
There should be a formal notification inviting you to attend and setting out what the meeting is for. Has the rep asked for the evidence?
Just read up on the process, don't think they're required to formally invite me to an investigative meeting which this must be. Looks like my misery may continue for a few more days yet..StuTheGrouch said:
How did the meeting go OP?
Had the chairman of the union in with me who is very, very good. It was just an investigative meeting - he said he would be absolutely astounded if it went any other way than no further action. He said they've just made a knee jerk reaction and started a process that they can't stop. He said IF they decided to *try* to take it down a disciplinary process there's no way they could follow through with anything as I haven't brought the company into disrepute - and there was no social media policy in place at the time. His exact words were "it's all a load of b
ks, if I were you i'd just take it as a few days free paid holiday and have a few beers at their expense".The person who originally suspended me is on holiday until monday, and the investigating person has to report to him either way (he'll then allocate somebody to discipline me) - they haven't finished their investigation yet as CCTV etc hasn't been viewed, it started with me today.
Another point raised by the union chairman was that the letter of suspension had the printed name of the investigating person at the bottom and was also signed by that person - yet the person who actually took me in and suspended me was somebody else.
Just phoned the union at 4pm. Apparently it's going to a disciplinary and I should receive a letter. The union still does not know what they're accusing me of, the person who held the investigative meeting last week didn't know (or wouldn't tell me) what I was accused of.
The union feels very, very strongly what they are doing is wrong and i'll have the head of the union going in with me. The senior (very senior, he/she has alot of influence but to name his/her exact position might identify him or her incase anyone was looking) manager who suspended me also feels very strongly against it, he/she was forced to do so by somebody higher up in the company.
The union is of the opinion that someone higher up in the company is determined to take this as far as they legally and technically can to make an example out of me due to external pressure. Whether that's from the other company or because the company's serious position with the traffic commissioner I don't know.
Everyone that i've spoken to that knows the full facts of this believes it's totally disproportionate and unfair. The manager that suspended me would normally be fully responsible for the whole process and as i've previously said he/she would have taken no action other than informally speaking to me, but this is being pursued by somebody higher up.
The union feels very, very strongly what they are doing is wrong and i'll have the head of the union going in with me. The senior (very senior, he/she has alot of influence but to name his/her exact position might identify him or her incase anyone was looking) manager who suspended me also feels very strongly against it, he/she was forced to do so by somebody higher up in the company.
The union is of the opinion that someone higher up in the company is determined to take this as far as they legally and technically can to make an example out of me due to external pressure. Whether that's from the other company or because the company's serious position with the traffic commissioner I don't know.
Everyone that i've spoken to that knows the full facts of this believes it's totally disproportionate and unfair. The manager that suspended me would normally be fully responsible for the whole process and as i've previously said he/she would have taken no action other than informally speaking to me, but this is being pursued by somebody higher up.
Edited by folos on Monday 1st June 17:39
Edited by folos on Monday 1st June 17:39
Eric Mc said:
Oh dear - worser and worser.
I have no idea why i'm still suspended, now the investigation is over there should be no reason why I can't return to work and they can arrange a disciplinary. Unless of course i'm now suspended pending dismissal, I guess i'll have to wait for a letter tomorrow.Jasandjules said:
With respect, I would suggest you look for another job NOW. If you can find one and string out the process, all the better so you can hand in your notice.
I say this regardless of the legal rights and wrongs (which I won't go into at this point).
I'm lucky in that I have quite a few contacts in the local industry and I won't have any problems finding another job very quickly. However, if I did start working for them before this was over and IF it did go down to a verbal warning or similar i'd definitely lose my job for driving professionally for another company.I say this regardless of the legal rights and wrongs (which I won't go into at this point).
Jasandjules said:
If you resign before proceedings are undertaken your notice can be given on the understanding that the company takes no further action in relation to any alleged misconduct.
Spoke to the union chairman again, he was adamant and spoke in no uncertain terms that I am not going to be sacked. If they give me any kind of warning it'll be appealed and taken all the way. I just feel like i'm in limbo - i'm 100% sure that the company doesn't want to go through with anything but are being pressurised by the other company and their situation with the traffic commissioner so have no choice. That's the worrying thing. Either that or the person pushing this is trying to save their own skin.
Jasandjules said:
With all due respect to your Union Rep, he is not in control of whether or not you are dismissed.
And furthermore, again, with respect, I have spent many hours dealing with cases that have been f***ed up by Union Reps. He may well be right, but he might be wrong. There is already case law of an employee summarily dismissed for postings made on facebook, this has been upheld as a lawful termination.
ETA - does your firm have a "Social Media" policy at all?
Thanks for the honest advice.And furthermore, again, with respect, I have spent many hours dealing with cases that have been f***ed up by Union Reps. He may well be right, but he might be wrong. There is already case law of an employee summarily dismissed for postings made on facebook, this has been upheld as a lawful termination.
ETA - does your firm have a "Social Media" policy at all?
Edited by Jasandjules on Monday 1st June 21:49
And no, the social media policy was brought in the day after I was suspended.
The only reason they're pursuing this is because the other company got hold of a screenshot - sent upwards by a driver/manager of theirs who does not like me at all. The photo clearly shows their vehicle is parked awkwardly and unattended. My vehicle is also parked awkwardly - but only to access the kerb due to the obstruction and other parked cars, I wanted to take the photo to document their obstructive parking and pass it on to the company with an incident report.
If the photo had not been obtained by the managing director of the company and passed onto the managing director of my company nothing would have happened at all. The other company has complained purely to cause trouble (this isn't conjecture - they are looking to cause us issues with the traffic commissioner)
If it had been seen by a manager of my company without the other company's knowledge - nothing would have happened other than being informally advised that it's not a good idea to put images like that online.
I'm aware that they could technically accuse me of gross misconduct, but i'm just being used as a pawn in a battle between two companies. All previous contact between the two companies has been through solicitors, in this case the MD felt it necessary to email his complaint directly.
If the photo had not been obtained by the managing director of the company and passed onto the managing director of my company nothing would have happened at all. The other company has complained purely to cause trouble (this isn't conjecture - they are looking to cause us issues with the traffic commissioner)
If it had been seen by a manager of my company without the other company's knowledge - nothing would have happened other than being informally advised that it's not a good idea to put images like that online.
I'm aware that they could technically accuse me of gross misconduct, but i'm just being used as a pawn in a battle between two companies. All previous contact between the two companies has been through solicitors, in this case the MD felt it necessary to email his complaint directly.
Edited by folos on Monday 1st June 22:13
Just had a phonecall (14:20) from the union chairman to say they want to to the disciplinary tomorrow at 11am. They're not changing his work schedule so he'll arrive at the depot at 10:50am.
He said he knows as much as me, still doesn't know what i'm accused of or what the disciplinary hearing is looking into. Still doesn't have all the evidence (I haven't seen the complaint email). No letter in the post today notifying me and giving me time to prepare.
If they were going to dismiss me I would have thought they'd be following proper process to the letter..
He said he knows as much as me, still doesn't know what i'm accused of or what the disciplinary hearing is looking into. Still doesn't have all the evidence (I haven't seen the complaint email). No letter in the post today notifying me and giving me time to prepare.
If they were going to dismiss me I would have thought they'd be following proper process to the letter..
A long read, i've probably forgotten to add some bits but you'll get the general gist of it. Been a very long day so I apologise if it's poorly written, i've left some bits out on purpose as a grievance is being pursued against the manager conducting the disciplinary by myself and the union.
Had the disciplinary meeting Wednesday. Had the union chairman in with me who is VERY, VERY good at what he does. Received my copy of the disciplinary invitation and accompanying documents 30 minutes before the meeting, which stated that this meeting may lead to my dismissal. The investigation report recommended that a disciplinary hearing should take place to find out if the taking of the photograph affected the smooth operation of the company. It recommended an outcome of no disciplinary award due to my previous impeccable record.
The investigation report also contained two statements that I did not make, as this is still an ongoing issue i'm not going to explain further. It also listed two things as evidence - 1) Email of complaint from the other company to the Head of Commercial Development 2) A conversation between the MD, Head of Ops and the Head of Commercial Development (which led to my suspension. Neither of these items were present in this report and at no point have they been made available for me to view/read.
The manager which conducted the disciplinary was the only one untainted by this investigation, and thus the only relevant manager able to conduct it.
First off, he was unable to explain why I was suspended. When pointed out that there is no justification in the company handbook (which all staff have to adhere to and all disciplinary matters have to follow) he refused to explain any further, saying that the reason was stated in the suspension letter. When pointed out that the reason in the suspension letter was not grounds for suspension - and therefore the company had no reason to suspend me he refused to explain any further. It was suggested that the company had no reason to suspend me - he declined to comment.
When asked on several points in the investigation report and on my statement it was clear the manager had not read ANY of it. He had gone into the meeting with a potential outcome of dismissal without reading any of the documentation. When questioned about the possible outcome of dismissal in relation to the investigation's recommendation his words were "This is my disciplinary, I don't have to read or listen to the recommendation I can do what I like. Whether I give you no award or dismiss you, it is up to me". As can be expected from this manager, his entire attitude during the whole hearing was standoffish, aggressive and bullying. They had also 'misplaced' the CCTV which showed that my version of events was true.
After waiting almost ten minutes for him to read the investigation and my statement he said that he was going to leave the room for 10 minutes to make his decision and when he returned he will be the only one speaking and any decision I can appeal. When told by the union rep that we are allowed to question him on his decision and ask him to explain it - he said "NO, I'm going to leave the room for 10 minutes to make my decision. When I return *I* will be the only one speaking. Do you have anything else to say because now is the time to do it."
My union rep said yes and requested that, as they were presented as evidence, that the manager should produce a copy of the complaint from the other company and a record of the conversation between the MD and the two aforementioned people. The manager adjourned the meeting until a future date and lifted my suspension with immediate effect. I asked how could he possibly decide that, after 12 days of being suspended, I can now immediately return to work. He declined to answer. The union rep stated that the company has a duty of care to me - and that after 12 days of being suspended without reason, how can I possibly be expected to immediately return to work still under the thread of dismissal. The manager declined to answer.
I went back to the union office to debrief when they had a phonecall from the Head of Ops, he'd instructed the manager to conclude this matter today and to gather the "missing" evidence. After 3 hours the union chairman was asked to meet the manager during which the manager insulted and swore at the union chairman - to cut a long story short they do not get on at all as the manager is hopelessly incompetent and the chairman does not let him get away with any errors. Again, I can't say too much on this matter as the union and myself are pursuing it (and the manager's behaviour towards me) as a separate matter. The meeting was to be reconvened at 3.30pm.
Went back there, the email of complaint from the other company could not be produced. The manager stated that a printed out screenshot of my facebook post was the email of complaint from the other company. There was no body of text (the complaint) and no other part of the document suggested that it was an email. It was simply a printed out screenshot. When challenged that this was NOT an email, and that either the email had not been produced for the hearing or it did not exist he again stated (simply) that "This is the email". When suggested that he was lying, he declined to comment.
There was no record of any conversations that, again, was presented as evidence in the investigation and the disciplinary report.
[b] He then went on to say he was giving me a written warning, reduced from a final written warning (????). When asked what his reasons were for this, he said "You can take it to appeal." When challenged that this was not a reason he said again, "you can take it to appeal." When I reminded he was legally obliged to explain his decision fully he stood up and leant towards me and said in an aggressive manner "I don't think you understand, Folos.". I asked him to calm down and stop trying to bully me as i'm not afraid of him. The union rep again asked him to explain his decision, he said (under duress) that I was receiving the written warning for:
Taking a photograph that may look like, may be interpreted by some people that it was a [our company] bus blocking in an [other company's] bus. Also, affecting the smooth operation of the company by getting off the bus to take a photo.
When asked to explain what about those two things amounts to a written warning, he said one word - "Conduct". It was clear that we were getting nowhere with him so the union rep and I decided to leave.[/b]
Two days later I received my official written warning - the reasons on which were different to those stated in the hearing. "Posting a photograph and comments on to a social media site that could cause acts likely to undermine the smooth operation of the business. Conduct- serious case unacceptable behaviour".
I was told by the company, and the manager was told by HR he was NOT allowed to put forward use of social media in the disciplinary as there was no social media policy in place at the time of this incident. There was no reference to social media or indeed facebook in any part of the investigation or disciplinary report. In effect 48 hours later he has made up a reason for giving me a written warning.
The union and myself fully believe that somebody in the company has decided to pursue this full steam ahead regardless of the consequences to set an example of me for a very minor mistake to deter anyone else in the company from posting something really damaging on facebook. He might as well have said "I'm giving you a written warning because somebody told me to do it". It's going to appeal and it's fully expected that it'll be reduced to no award.
Had the disciplinary meeting Wednesday. Had the union chairman in with me who is VERY, VERY good at what he does. Received my copy of the disciplinary invitation and accompanying documents 30 minutes before the meeting, which stated that this meeting may lead to my dismissal. The investigation report recommended that a disciplinary hearing should take place to find out if the taking of the photograph affected the smooth operation of the company. It recommended an outcome of no disciplinary award due to my previous impeccable record.
The investigation report also contained two statements that I did not make, as this is still an ongoing issue i'm not going to explain further. It also listed two things as evidence - 1) Email of complaint from the other company to the Head of Commercial Development 2) A conversation between the MD, Head of Ops and the Head of Commercial Development (which led to my suspension. Neither of these items were present in this report and at no point have they been made available for me to view/read.
The manager which conducted the disciplinary was the only one untainted by this investigation, and thus the only relevant manager able to conduct it.
First off, he was unable to explain why I was suspended. When pointed out that there is no justification in the company handbook (which all staff have to adhere to and all disciplinary matters have to follow) he refused to explain any further, saying that the reason was stated in the suspension letter. When pointed out that the reason in the suspension letter was not grounds for suspension - and therefore the company had no reason to suspend me he refused to explain any further. It was suggested that the company had no reason to suspend me - he declined to comment.
When asked on several points in the investigation report and on my statement it was clear the manager had not read ANY of it. He had gone into the meeting with a potential outcome of dismissal without reading any of the documentation. When questioned about the possible outcome of dismissal in relation to the investigation's recommendation his words were "This is my disciplinary, I don't have to read or listen to the recommendation I can do what I like. Whether I give you no award or dismiss you, it is up to me". As can be expected from this manager, his entire attitude during the whole hearing was standoffish, aggressive and bullying. They had also 'misplaced' the CCTV which showed that my version of events was true.
After waiting almost ten minutes for him to read the investigation and my statement he said that he was going to leave the room for 10 minutes to make his decision and when he returned he will be the only one speaking and any decision I can appeal. When told by the union rep that we are allowed to question him on his decision and ask him to explain it - he said "NO, I'm going to leave the room for 10 minutes to make my decision. When I return *I* will be the only one speaking. Do you have anything else to say because now is the time to do it."
My union rep said yes and requested that, as they were presented as evidence, that the manager should produce a copy of the complaint from the other company and a record of the conversation between the MD and the two aforementioned people. The manager adjourned the meeting until a future date and lifted my suspension with immediate effect. I asked how could he possibly decide that, after 12 days of being suspended, I can now immediately return to work. He declined to answer. The union rep stated that the company has a duty of care to me - and that after 12 days of being suspended without reason, how can I possibly be expected to immediately return to work still under the thread of dismissal. The manager declined to answer.
I went back to the union office to debrief when they had a phonecall from the Head of Ops, he'd instructed the manager to conclude this matter today and to gather the "missing" evidence. After 3 hours the union chairman was asked to meet the manager during which the manager insulted and swore at the union chairman - to cut a long story short they do not get on at all as the manager is hopelessly incompetent and the chairman does not let him get away with any errors. Again, I can't say too much on this matter as the union and myself are pursuing it (and the manager's behaviour towards me) as a separate matter. The meeting was to be reconvened at 3.30pm.
Went back there, the email of complaint from the other company could not be produced. The manager stated that a printed out screenshot of my facebook post was the email of complaint from the other company. There was no body of text (the complaint) and no other part of the document suggested that it was an email. It was simply a printed out screenshot. When challenged that this was NOT an email, and that either the email had not been produced for the hearing or it did not exist he again stated (simply) that "This is the email". When suggested that he was lying, he declined to comment.
There was no record of any conversations that, again, was presented as evidence in the investigation and the disciplinary report.
[b] He then went on to say he was giving me a written warning, reduced from a final written warning (????). When asked what his reasons were for this, he said "You can take it to appeal." When challenged that this was not a reason he said again, "you can take it to appeal." When I reminded he was legally obliged to explain his decision fully he stood up and leant towards me and said in an aggressive manner "I don't think you understand, Folos.". I asked him to calm down and stop trying to bully me as i'm not afraid of him. The union rep again asked him to explain his decision, he said (under duress) that I was receiving the written warning for:
Taking a photograph that may look like, may be interpreted by some people that it was a [our company] bus blocking in an [other company's] bus. Also, affecting the smooth operation of the company by getting off the bus to take a photo.
When asked to explain what about those two things amounts to a written warning, he said one word - "Conduct". It was clear that we were getting nowhere with him so the union rep and I decided to leave.[/b]
Two days later I received my official written warning - the reasons on which were different to those stated in the hearing. "Posting a photograph and comments on to a social media site that could cause acts likely to undermine the smooth operation of the business. Conduct- serious case unacceptable behaviour".
I was told by the company, and the manager was told by HR he was NOT allowed to put forward use of social media in the disciplinary as there was no social media policy in place at the time of this incident. There was no reference to social media or indeed facebook in any part of the investigation or disciplinary report. In effect 48 hours later he has made up a reason for giving me a written warning.
The union and myself fully believe that somebody in the company has decided to pursue this full steam ahead regardless of the consequences to set an example of me for a very minor mistake to deter anyone else in the company from posting something really damaging on facebook. He might as well have said "I'm giving you a written warning because somebody told me to do it". It's going to appeal and it's fully expected that it'll be reduced to no award.
Edited by folos on Monday 8th June 22:54
Appeal is on Monday, first they allocated the appeal to the senior manager who recieved the complaint from the other company. Obviously a no go.
Also the union has found out that there was no complaint from the other company. Someone at my company has fabricated the "fact" that there was an email of complaint - hence why it could not be produced - obviously this raises *alot* of issues.
The issue with the manager giving the disciplinary is ongoing and will hopefully be resolved. Will update when more stuff happens.
Also the union has found out that there was no complaint from the other company. Someone at my company has fabricated the "fact" that there was an email of complaint - hence why it could not be produced - obviously this raises *alot* of issues.
The issue with the manager giving the disciplinary is ongoing and will hopefully be resolved. Will update when more stuff happens.
It's still ongoing, appeal upheld the decision on blatantly bullst reasons.
It's almost certainly going to an employment tribunal now (nobody else left in the company to deal with it) where everything will come out in the wash, i'd rather not say any more about what happened at the appeal for obvious reasons. The company has had every opportunity to avoid this and they're going to come away very, very red faced indeed..
t reasons.It's almost certainly going to an employment tribunal now (nobody else left in the company to deal with it) where everything will come out in the wash, i'd rather not say any more about what happened at the appeal for obvious reasons. The company has had every opportunity to avoid this and they're going to come away very, very red faced indeed..
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