Latest AUTOCAR Test: RS4 vs V8 M3
Discussion
Olf said:
bennno said:
Olf said:
We've been through this already ad nauseum. The M-cars have never been 'cut price performace bargains'. That niche is nicely filled by the Scoobies and the Elises.
'Cut price 911' has always been the motoring press summary1993
M3 - 32,450
911 - 50,450 (35% more)
1999
M3 - 38,445
911 - 64,800 (40% more)
2007
M3 - 50,625
911 - 60,810 (17% more)
Admittedly bmw has increased the power of the M3 beyond that of the 911, however as Top gear recently demonstrated the base Carrera was significantly faster over a closed road than a 507bhp M6 so thats largely irrelevant.
Point I made earlier in this thread is that the BMW is no longer the bargain it once was and now faces much stiffer competition. Having owned M3, M3CSL, M5 and 911 - I would say the 911 is the better drive, more exotic and enjoyable car.
I cannot see BMW having the same waiting lists for the new car as existed in 2000 when the old one was released.
Bennno
Edited by bennno on Wednesday 25th July 08:48
The M3 is not the performance bargain it once was because a 911 beats an M6 on a closed road.
Point I made about relative performance was to demonstrate that despite a power deficit the Porsche isnt any slower in real terms.
Sorry if that logic blunts the thrust of your arguement.
Bennno
bennno said:
Olf said:
bennno said:
Olf said:
We've been through this already ad nauseum. The M-cars have never been 'cut price performace bargains'. That niche is nicely filled by the Scoobies and the Elises.
'Cut price 911' has always been the motoring press summary1993
M3 - 32,450
911 - 50,450 (35% more)
1999
M3 - 38,445
911 - 64,800 (40% more)
2007
M3 - 50,625
911 - 60,810 (17% more)
Admittedly bmw has increased the power of the M3 beyond that of the 911, however as Top gear recently demonstrated the base Carrera was significantly faster over a closed road than a 507bhp M6 so thats largely irrelevant.
Point I made earlier in this thread is that the BMW is no longer the bargain it once was and now faces much stiffer competition. Having owned M3, M3CSL, M5 and 911 - I would say the 911 is the better drive, more exotic and enjoyable car.
I cannot see BMW having the same waiting lists for the new car as existed in 2000 when the old one was released.
Bennno
Edited by bennno on Wednesday 25th July 08:48
The M3 is not the performance bargain it once was because a 911 beats an M6 on a closed road.
Point I made about relative performance was to demonstrate that despite a power deficit the Porsche isnt any slower in real terms.
Sorry if that logic blunts the thrust of your arguement.
Bennno
Even Evo only gave the new M3 a very slight overall advantage, however it's beleived this was more down to tyres as the RS4 had oem rubber, but the M3 was wearing stickier tyres (perhaps true, perhaps not), however even in Evo, they gave the RS4 the win for styling, straight line performance, stearing (shocker), along with a couple of other points i've now forgoten, so they themselves were shocked at how poorly the new M3 had really done, as they had 2yrs of RS4 production to hone the M3 & appear to have failed.
No doubt hype has alot to do with this & as someone has already said, magazine roadtests ought to be taken with a pinch of salt, however it does appear that the new M3 has gone backwards. I'm still sure it will be an awesome piece of kit & like others, i can't wait to see how the new C63 does, as given my recent drive of the daddy S63, AMG appear to have upped their game as regards handling & brakes.
No doubt hype has alot to do with this & as someone has already said, magazine roadtests ought to be taken with a pinch of salt, however it does appear that the new M3 has gone backwards. I'm still sure it will be an awesome piece of kit & like others, i can't wait to see how the new C63 does, as given my recent drive of the daddy S63, AMG appear to have upped their game as regards handling & brakes.
W8PMC said:
Even Evo only gave the new M3 a very slight overall advantage, however it's beleived this was more down to tyres as the RS4 had oem rubber, but the M3 was wearing stickier tyres (perhaps true, perhaps not), however even in Evo, they gave the RS4 the win for styling, straight line performance, stearing (shocker), along with a couple of other points i've now forgoten, so they themselves were shocked at how poorly the new M3 had really done, as they had 2yrs of RS4 production to hone the M3 & appear to have failed.
No doubt hype has alot to do with this & as someone has already said, magazine roadtests ought to be taken with a pinch of salt, however it does appear that the new M3 has gone backwards. I'm still sure it will be an awesome piece of kit & like others, i can't wait to see how the new C63 does, as given my recent drive of the daddy S63, AMG appear to have upped their game as regards handling & brakes.
Surely this isn't a case of BMW 'failing' but rather bumping up against the law of dimminishing returns. You seem to be criticising them for not moving the new M3 on dramatically from the old car, or indeed the RS4, but drive both those cars and then tell me exactly where you can honestly expect the new car to make huge advances - it can't be done in the price bracket. Improvements were always going to be small until some new, currently unheard of, tech. advance comes along. On a more minor point the fact that Evo prefer the styling of the Audi is of course irrelevant. You might, I suppose, change your mind about buying a car based on poor reports of say handling or performance but surely your own eyes will be a judge of whether you like the look of a car or not - unless you're a total sheep! (not aimed at you W8PMC btw).No doubt hype has alot to do with this & as someone has already said, magazine roadtests ought to be taken with a pinch of salt, however it does appear that the new M3 has gone backwards. I'm still sure it will be an awesome piece of kit & like others, i can't wait to see how the new C63 does, as given my recent drive of the daddy S63, AMG appear to have upped their game as regards handling & brakes.
bennno said:
Admittedly bmw has increased the power of the M3 beyond that of the 911, however as Top gear recently demonstrated the base Carrera was significantly faster over a closed road than a 507bhp M6 so thats largely irrelevant.
Top Gear demonstrated merely that on that day with that driver the 911 was quicker. On most tracks I would expect the 911 to be quicker. In a straightish line, i.e. on the Autobahn, the M6 is much quicker. On the Ring, the M6 is quicker than the C2 and similar to the C2S. They aim to do different things in any case. The M6 is a big GT. Its natural competition is the Jag XKR. The competitor to the 911 is the M3. Dunk76 said:
However....
The current RS4 is now out of production is it not?
So the comparison is slightly academic - according the Audi dealer whose RS4 I tested last month, there's only stock left - no new builds.
Wonder how the 'new' RS4 compares with the M3 when it arrives late next year.
Thought it was the RS6 nextThe current RS4 is now out of production is it not?
So the comparison is slightly academic - according the Audi dealer whose RS4 I tested last month, there's only stock left - no new builds.
Wonder how the 'new' RS4 compares with the M3 when it arrives late next year.
Been reading this with interest as both a long term Autocar (Motor back then) and Evo reader, and I most certainly don't have £50k to spend but I'll put my 2p in, if that is OK.
1, For the majority of folks who have £50k burning a hole in their pocket, (and I don't think they are the type of people who make up the users on here) It doesn't matter what Autocar/Evo say or whether the buyer thinks one drives better than the other, what matters is having the latest, flashest toy and if you have it before the Jones' then all the better. The reality is that if the M3 isn't quite as good as the RS4, it won't matter, because they will still fly out of the showroom, making plenty of profit for BMW in the process.
2, Profit, now here's a subject...If the BMW bean counters cared about the quality of the product, they would take a £1000 hit in profit and fit decent brakes to the car in the first place, or remove the carbon roof and fit the brakes instead. Ah, but you can't see a set of decent calipers can you, a carbon roof is much more bling (see point 1).
3, So M3's will sell like hotcakes until something better will come along and then the Jones' will be clambering to buy the next big thing. What will that be...M3CS/CSL. Oh Dear. So all of the M3 owners run back to the dealers and trade in their one year old M3's (with a pretty big loss I imagine) for the CS/CSL for about £55k plus and the CS/CSL's fly out of the showroom. The dealers are left with plenty of M3's to sell at a profit as a bonus.
Sounds like BMW have got it right to me.
Steve
1, For the majority of folks who have £50k burning a hole in their pocket, (and I don't think they are the type of people who make up the users on here) It doesn't matter what Autocar/Evo say or whether the buyer thinks one drives better than the other, what matters is having the latest, flashest toy and if you have it before the Jones' then all the better. The reality is that if the M3 isn't quite as good as the RS4, it won't matter, because they will still fly out of the showroom, making plenty of profit for BMW in the process.
2, Profit, now here's a subject...If the BMW bean counters cared about the quality of the product, they would take a £1000 hit in profit and fit decent brakes to the car in the first place, or remove the carbon roof and fit the brakes instead. Ah, but you can't see a set of decent calipers can you, a carbon roof is much more bling (see point 1).
3, So M3's will sell like hotcakes until something better will come along and then the Jones' will be clambering to buy the next big thing. What will that be...M3CS/CSL. Oh Dear. So all of the M3 owners run back to the dealers and trade in their one year old M3's (with a pretty big loss I imagine) for the CS/CSL for about £55k plus and the CS/CSL's fly out of the showroom. The dealers are left with plenty of M3's to sell at a profit as a bonus.
Sounds like BMW have got it right to me.
Steve
stevesingo said:
Been reading this with interest as both a long term Autocar (Motor back then) and Evo reader, and I most certainly don't have £50k to spend but I'll put my 2p in, if that is OK.
1, For the majority of folks who have £50k burning a hole in their pocket, (and I don't think they are the type of people who make up the users on here) It doesn't matter what Autocar/Evo say or whether the buyer thinks one drives better than the other, what matters is having the latest, flashest toy and if you have it before the Jones' then all the better. The reality is that if the M3 isn't quite as good as the RS4, it won't matter, because they will still fly out of the showroom, making plenty of profit for BMW in the process.
2, Profit, now here's a subject...If the BMW bean counters cared about the quality of the product, they would take a £1000 hit in profit and fit decent brakes to the car in the first place, or remove the carbon roof and fit the brakes instead. Ah, but you can't see a set of decent calipers can you, a carbon roof is much more bling (see point 1).
3, So M3's will sell like hotcakes until something better will come along and then the Jones' will be clambering to buy the next big thing. What will that be...M3CS/CSL. Oh Dear. So all of the M3 owners run back to the dealers and trade in their one year old M3's (with a pretty big loss I imagine) for the CS/CSL for about £55k plus and the CS/CSL's fly out of the showroom. The dealers are left with plenty of M3's to sell at a profit as a bonus.
Sounds like BMW have got it right to me.
Steve
1. Cobblers - and mildly insulting may I add!1, For the majority of folks who have £50k burning a hole in their pocket, (and I don't think they are the type of people who make up the users on here) It doesn't matter what Autocar/Evo say or whether the buyer thinks one drives better than the other, what matters is having the latest, flashest toy and if you have it before the Jones' then all the better. The reality is that if the M3 isn't quite as good as the RS4, it won't matter, because they will still fly out of the showroom, making plenty of profit for BMW in the process.
2, Profit, now here's a subject...If the BMW bean counters cared about the quality of the product, they would take a £1000 hit in profit and fit decent brakes to the car in the first place, or remove the carbon roof and fit the brakes instead. Ah, but you can't see a set of decent calipers can you, a carbon roof is much more bling (see point 1).
3, So M3's will sell like hotcakes until something better will come along and then the Jones' will be clambering to buy the next big thing. What will that be...M3CS/CSL. Oh Dear. So all of the M3 owners run back to the dealers and trade in their one year old M3's (with a pretty big loss I imagine) for the CS/CSL for about £55k plus and the CS/CSL's fly out of the showroom. The dealers are left with plenty of M3's to sell at a profit as a bonus.
Sounds like BMW have got it right to me.
Steve
2. Spot on. Very good point.
3 See I. above please!
All IMO and from my view point of course.
Cheers.
Olf said:
bennno said:
would you not buy a slightly used m5 in preference to the new m3
the price is now very close
bennno
I would, yes, without a doubt but then I'm not magically drawn by this mystical smell, taste, feel of owning a brand new car which some people seem to have to have.the price is now very close
bennno
Though I think watching the used values once they start to hit the market in 12 months time will be interesting, will the used values hold up or will the new car "do a CSL" ?
Pugsey said:
stevesingo said:
Been reading this with interest as both a long term Autocar (Motor back then) and Evo reader, and I most certainly don't have £50k to spend but I'll put my 2p in, if that is OK.
1, For the majority of folks who have £50k burning a hole in their pocket, (and I don't think they are the type of people who make up the users on here) It doesn't matter what Autocar/Evo say or whether the buyer thinks one drives better than the other, what matters is having the latest, flashest toy and if you have it before the Jones' then all the better. The reality is that if the M3 isn't quite as good as the RS4, it won't matter, because they will still fly out of the showroom, making plenty of profit for BMW in the process.
2, Profit, now here's a subject...If the BMW bean counters cared about the quality of the product, they would take a £1000 hit in profit and fit decent brakes to the car in the first place, or remove the carbon roof and fit the brakes instead. Ah, but you can't see a set of decent calipers can you, a carbon roof is much more bling (see point 1).
3, So M3's will sell like hotcakes until something better will come along and then the Jones' will be clambering to buy the next big thing. What will that be...M3CS/CSL. Oh Dear. So all of the M3 owners run back to the dealers and trade in their one year old M3's (with a pretty big loss I imagine) for the CS/CSL for about £55k plus and the CS/CSL's fly out of the showroom. The dealers are left with plenty of M3's to sell at a profit as a bonus.
Sounds like BMW have got it right to me.
Steve
1. Cobblers - and mildly insulting may I add!1, For the majority of folks who have £50k burning a hole in their pocket, (and I don't think they are the type of people who make up the users on here) It doesn't matter what Autocar/Evo say or whether the buyer thinks one drives better than the other, what matters is having the latest, flashest toy and if you have it before the Jones' then all the better. The reality is that if the M3 isn't quite as good as the RS4, it won't matter, because they will still fly out of the showroom, making plenty of profit for BMW in the process.
2, Profit, now here's a subject...If the BMW bean counters cared about the quality of the product, they would take a £1000 hit in profit and fit decent brakes to the car in the first place, or remove the carbon roof and fit the brakes instead. Ah, but you can't see a set of decent calipers can you, a carbon roof is much more bling (see point 1).
3, So M3's will sell like hotcakes until something better will come along and then the Jones' will be clambering to buy the next big thing. What will that be...M3CS/CSL. Oh Dear. So all of the M3 owners run back to the dealers and trade in their one year old M3's (with a pretty big loss I imagine) for the CS/CSL for about £55k plus and the CS/CSL's fly out of the showroom. The dealers are left with plenty of M3's to sell at a profit as a bonus.
Sounds like BMW have got it right to me.
Steve
2. Spot on. Very good point.
3 See I. above please!
All IMO and from my view point of course.
Cheers.
Pugsey said:
1. Cobblers - and mildly insulting may I add!
2. Spot on. Very good point.
3 See I. above please!
All IMO and from my view point of course.
Cheers.
Pugsey, As you are reading this, point 1 doesn't apply to you. No need to be offended. We are a minority, most have blood group O+ not 98RON.2. Spot on. Very good point.
3 See I. above please!
All IMO and from my view point of course.
Cheers.
Steve
W8PMC said:
Even Evo only gave the new M3 a very slight overall advantage, however it's beleived this was more down to tyres as the RS4 had oem rubber, but the M3 was wearing stickier tyres (perhaps true, perhaps not), however even in Evo, they gave the RS4 the win for styling, straight line performance, stearing (shocker), along with a couple of other points i've now forgoten, so they themselves were shocked at how poorly the new M3 had really done, as they had 2yrs of RS4 production to hone the M3 & appear to have failed.
Not entirely true. We didn't feel the RS4s steering was better, it was lighter and provided less feel when loaded, but the RS4s steering turned in slightly better but then lost feel. You will note Richard's comments about the road surface which really were unusually slippery, so we are inclined to reserve final judgement on the M3's steering feel just off-centre until we drive it in the UK. We also did not give the RS4 the nod for straight line performance, the M3 we were given by BMW was quicker than EVO's Long Term RS4 that we drove down to the test.
Really it was a clear advantage for the M3 dynamically and for driving enjoyment, with the RS4 winning on the aesthetics of cabin quality, visual impact and street appeal.
BMW aimed squarely at the RS4s weaknesses and scored a bulls-eye precisely where you would expect. The RS4 has very good steering and one of the best gear-changes on the market (for any car), so the M3 was never going to exceed these qualities by much if any.
So we were not 'shocked' at all. The M3 was a stonking car to drive, but the really good aspects of the RS4 remain 'really good' even when compared to the new M3. As Pugsey said BMW really were entering the domain of diminishing returns in being able to exceed the RS4 by a large margin without making the price untenable.
So Audi did a good job with the RS4, but then so now has BMW. Let's see how Mercedes do...
stevesingo said:
Pugsey said:
1. Cobblers - and mildly insulting may I add!
2. Spot on. Very good point.
3 See I. above please!
All IMO and from my view point of course.
Cheers.
Pugsey, As you are reading this, point 1 doesn't apply to you. No need to be offended. We are a minority, most have blood group O+ not 98RON.2. Spot on. Very good point.
3 See I. above please!
All IMO and from my view point of course.
Cheers.
Steve
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