RE: BMW M5 gets a manual gearbox

[Guibo]

Zod said:

This is just something that Americans who "think" they are driving gods because they have mastered the art of pulling off in a manual without stalling.As with the E46 M3, many of them will probably blow their engines by changing down at high speed, something SMG prevents.

The problems with the E46 M3 were down to a known mechanical defect within the engine. Plenty of M3 engine failures with SMG here, some with overrevs (and plenty of non-US manual-equipped failures):
http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3en

[FestivAli]

greybeard said:

Don't know that I'm too happy with the put-downs of us Yanks, but I can tell you that I personally have driven stick-only since 1974, and sporadically before that. Note that the Acura Integra GS-R that I owned in the '90's was offered only in stick, no automatic at all, as was the Honda Prelude SH that I drive now. I'm sure the BMW will sell briskly.

Yeah that might have had something to do with integras not being made or sold anywhere as auto's to my knowledge, and why would you? A revvy vtec mill isn't going to be the fastest piece of kit in the world when offered with a typically ordinary mid nineties automatic box. Interesting strategy for bmw to do this though,I guess it means that all the posers in the US buy Escallades with 20million inch rims and the people who buy enthuisiast cars like M5s are actually enthuisiasts - I bet there are plenty of folk in the UK (and Australia) who buy for the badge. Was reading either Car or Top Gear and a bloke reckoned that his neighbour had just bought an M5 with a customised 'V12' rego plate. Tosser. Reading journals like road and track and car and driver I kind of get the feeling, that despite what we'd like to stereotype, there are more drivers stateside like Greybeard out there than we'd secretly (pretending were a smarter race, ugh) like to hope. I'm not going to congratulate you for being a yank and able to operate a manual though, its really not that hard.

Ali.

Edited by FestivAli on Saturday 18th November 11:57

[Dino D]

FestivAli said:

I'm not going to congratulate you for being a yank

[Zod]

Guibo said:

Zod said:

This is just something that Americans who "think" they are driving gods because they have mastered the art of pulling off in a manual without stalling.As with the E46 M3, many of them will probably blow their engines by changing down at high speed, something SMG prevents.

The problems with the E46 M3 were down to a known mechanical defect within the engine. Plenty of M3 engine failures with SMG here, some with overrevs (and plenty of non-US manual-equipped failures):
http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3en

they were indeed due to the conrod issue, but there was a disproportionate number of failures in the US and with manual gearboxes. BMW held a trackday for M3s in 2003 at Silverstone. Out of about 70 M3s, three engines blew. All were manuals.

[b10brw]

Zod said:

Guibo said:

Zod said:

This is just something that Americans who "think" they are driving gods because they have mastered the art of pulling off in a manual without stalling.As with the E46 M3, many of them will probably blow their engines by changing down at high speed, something SMG prevents.

The problems with the E46 M3 were down to a known mechanical defect within the engine. Plenty of M3 engine failures with SMG here, some with overrevs (and plenty of non-US manual-equipped failures):
http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3en

they were indeed due to the conrod issue, but there was a disproportionate number of failures in the US and with manual gearboxes. BMW held a trackday for M3s in 2003 at Silverstone. Out of about 70 M3s, three engines blew. All were manuals.

The reason for the disproportionate number of failures in the US is because they put it in first gear and leave it there not realising it's a manual.

[Guibo]

Zod said:

they were indeed due to the conrod issue, but there was a disproportionate number of failures in the US and with manual gearboxes. BMW held a trackday for M3s in 2003 at Silverstone. Out of about 70 M3s, three engines blew. All were manuals.[/quote]
What are the percentages vs # sold in each market? SMG vs manual?
If you read through the accountsfor the manual cars, most of the engine failures occurred while just cruising along and the fault was due to such things as "metal in the #6 cylinder", with plenty of confirmation by the cars' computers that there was no overrev issue. On the other hand, it seems pretty evident that SMG does not prevent overrev.

[Zod]

Guibo said:

Zod said:

they were indeed due to the conrod issue, but there was a disproportionate number of failures in the US and with manual gearboxes. BMW held a trackday for M3s in 2003 at Silverstone. Out of about 70 M3s, three engines blew. All were manuals.

What are the percentages vs # sold in each market? SMG vs manual?
If you read through the accountsfor the manual cars, most of the engine failures occurred while just cruising along and the fault was due to such things as "metal in the #6 cylinder", with plenty of confirmation by the cars' computers that there was no overrev issue. On the other hand, it seems pretty evident that SMG does not prevent overrev.[/quote]It does because it will not let you change down when the engine would overrev.

[Guibo]

We may need to clarify the definition of overrev, because if that means the SMG or ECU doesn't allow revs past the the rev limiter, then that clearly is not the case. There are failures of SMG-equipped cars with DME printouts reporting ~8400 rpm.

[john_r]

The SMG's are renowned for failing. I know one guy that started his E60 M5 (new V10) one morning and promptly spewed several litres of oil onto his drive!! Hardly under stress and his car had never been on or near a track...

Basically, never buy a modern high rev BMW M car without some kind of warranty... I spent a lot of time researching this before buying one; however the grin factor more than outweighs the potential SMG failure and UK BMW's get a full 3yr warranty anyway.

And when I say grin, I mean regular hysterical uncontrolled face splitting grins!

[thirsty]

greybeard said:

Don't know that I'm too happy with the put-downs of us Yanks, but I can tell you that I personally have driven stick-only since 1974, and sporadically before that. Note that the Acura Integra GS-R that I owned in the '90's was offered only in stick, no automatic at all, as was the Honda Prelude SH that I drive now. I'm sure the BMW will sell briskly.

Yeah .. just because "us Yanks" think a manual in a daily driver (Toyota Corolla etc ) is a chore, doesn't mean we don't know how to drive one. Chevy knew that they had to put a manual in the Vette in order to sell it. Same with the GTO (Holden Manaro). What I always tell my Brit mates is this ... why in the world would I want to get stuck every day in a huge traffic queue on some freeway driving a manual anything? My daily drive to work car will always be an automatic. My fun car is something else however ....

[robbo523]

US getting a 4x4 E60 as well ar'nt they?

[Ashok]

Rest of the world has a wider selection of BMW models than the UK.

Four wheel drive versions of the E60 currently include the 525xi, 530xi and 530xd. They use a version of the xDrive system also found on the X3 and X5.

[hodgson 100]

The E60 M5 touring will be available in the uk in June 07.

[Zod]

greybeard said:

Don't know that I'm too happy with the put-downs of us Yanks, but I can tell you that I personally have driven stick-only since 1974, and sporadically before that. Note that the Acura Integra GS-R that I owned in the '90's was offered only in stick, no automatic at all, as was the Honda Prelude SH that I drive now. I'm sure the BMW will sell briskly.

Unlikley: Car and Driver has tested it and found it to be much slower than the SMG (4.7 vs 4.2 for 0-60 - odd figures - faster than anyone else's SMG figure) and you can't switch off DSC! Looks to me like a case of M GmbH making it a "told you so" model.