Latest AUTOCAR Test: RS4 vs V8 M3
Discussion
535dman said:
Autocar / Auto Express - purely kids stuff - Have a read of the EVO test - excellent write up 
Not much between the two cars though - Audi are right up BMW's backside with the RS4.
Shame though as the RS6 is nothing compared to an M5 (or even a chipped 535d)
The new RS6 have not been launched yet.Not much between the two cars though - Audi are right up BMW's backside with the RS4.
Shame though as the RS6 is nothing compared to an M5 (or even a chipped 535d)
Unless you have some contacts in the know.Ess-Phwoar said:
535dman said:
Autocar / Auto Express - purely kids stuff - Have a read of the EVO test - excellent write up
Not much between the two cars though - Audi are right up BMW's backside with the RS4.
Shame though as the RS6 is nothing compared to an M5 (or even a chipped 535d)
The new RS6 have not been launched yet.Not much between the two cars though - Audi are right up BMW's backside with the RS4.
Shame though as the RS6 is nothing compared to an M5 (or even a chipped 535d)
Unless you have some contacts in the know.The new RS6 will i'm sure be all over the M5, as Audi have had well over 2 years to make sure they break the back of the M5 & if the rumoured 580BHP stock are correct, married to the RWD biaised Quattro as in the RS4, then me thinks Audi will take that crown.
W8PMC said:
Ess-Phwoar said:
535dman said:
Autocar / Auto Express - purely kids stuff - Have a read of the EVO test - excellent write up
Not much between the two cars though - Audi are right up BMW's backside with the RS4.
Shame though as the RS6 is nothing compared to an M5 (or even a chipped 535d)
The new RS6 have not been launched yet.Not much between the two cars though - Audi are right up BMW's backside with the RS4.
Shame though as the RS6 is nothing compared to an M5 (or even a chipped 535d)
Unless you have some contacts in the know.The new RS6 will i'm sure be all over the M5, as Audi have had well over 2 years to make sure they break the back of the M5 & if the rumoured 580BHP stock are correct, married to the RWD biaised Quattro as in the RS4, then me thinks Audi will take that crown.
Ess-Phwoar said:
535dman said:
Autocar / Auto Express - purely kids stuff - Have a read of the EVO test - excellent write up
Not much between the two cars though - Audi are right up BMW's backside with the RS4.
Shame though as the RS6 is nothing compared to an M5 (or even a chipped 535d)
The new RS6 have not been launched yet.Not much between the two cars though - Audi are right up BMW's backside with the RS4.
Shame though as the RS6 is nothing compared to an M5 (or even a chipped 535d)
Unless you have some contacts in the know. when compared to the last generation M5...The BHP war is really getting out of hands now - should start a Torque war - It'll be the Diesels all the way
I normally rate Sutcliffe's views, and I was disappointed by his verdict. But he did not put me off the E92.
I drove a basic 997 C2 quite a bit - I found that dynamically it was pros and cons versus my E46, so the driving pleasure for me was pretty similar. The M3 on the other hand was far easier to use - easier to put stuff and people in, quieter and with better ride at a cruise, and generally more luxurious. And whatever the doubters have to say, I am confident I will find the E92 a step forward from the E46. So my decision in favour of E92 over 997 is not solely driven by the saving.
I found the price of the new car quite reasonable considering the spec which includes pro navigation and electric seats. If I had a 997 I would want a well equipped S and the price would be vastly higher.
I am not at all tempted by an M5 as an alternative - less wieldy, and with a gearbox which I find unacceptable. And for the moment Audi are opting out of the market, with a long gap expected between RS4 and RS5. Indeed, the way they market RS cars rules them out for me - they only introduce the RS models towards the end of the life of the base car. Since I like to buy cars new and keep them for quite a while I do not want them to look like the 'old' model for most of the time I have them. At the moment the only alternative to the E92 which I am considering is the S5 - not dynamically comparable, but a better looking and feeling machine inside and out IMO.
On balance though it is still an E92 for me, but as mentioned elsewhere probably not until the dual clutch gearbox arrives.
I drove a basic 997 C2 quite a bit - I found that dynamically it was pros and cons versus my E46, so the driving pleasure for me was pretty similar. The M3 on the other hand was far easier to use - easier to put stuff and people in, quieter and with better ride at a cruise, and generally more luxurious. And whatever the doubters have to say, I am confident I will find the E92 a step forward from the E46. So my decision in favour of E92 over 997 is not solely driven by the saving.
I found the price of the new car quite reasonable considering the spec which includes pro navigation and electric seats. If I had a 997 I would want a well equipped S and the price would be vastly higher.
I am not at all tempted by an M5 as an alternative - less wieldy, and with a gearbox which I find unacceptable. And for the moment Audi are opting out of the market, with a long gap expected between RS4 and RS5. Indeed, the way they market RS cars rules them out for me - they only introduce the RS models towards the end of the life of the base car. Since I like to buy cars new and keep them for quite a while I do not want them to look like the 'old' model for most of the time I have them. At the moment the only alternative to the E92 which I am considering is the S5 - not dynamically comparable, but a better looking and feeling machine inside and out IMO.
On balance though it is still an E92 for me, but as mentioned elsewhere probably not until the dual clutch gearbox arrives.
waremark said:
I normally rate Sutcliffe's views, and I was disappointed by his verdict. But he did not put me off the E92.
I drove a basic 997 C2 quite a bit - I found that dynamically it was pros and cons versus my E46, so the driving pleasure for me was pretty similar. The M3 on the other hand was far easier to use - easier to put stuff and people in, quieter and with better ride at a cruise, and generally more luxurious. And whatever the doubters have to say, I am confident I will find the E92 a step forward from the E46. So my decision in favour of E92 over 997 is not solely driven by the saving.
I found the price of the new car quite reasonable considering the spec which includes pro navigation and electric seats. If I had a 997 I would want a well equipped S and the price would be vastly higher.
I am not at all tempted by an M5 as an alternative - less wieldy, and with a gearbox which I find unacceptable. And for the moment Audi are opting out of the market, with a long gap expected between RS4 and RS5. Indeed, the way they market RS cars rules them out for me - they only introduce the RS models towards the end of the life of the base car. Since I like to buy cars new and keep them for quite a while I do not want them to look like the 'old' model for most of the time I have them. At the moment the only alternative to the E92 which I am considering is the S5 - not dynamically comparable, but a better looking and feeling machine inside and out IMO.
On balance though it is still an E92 for me, but as mentioned elsewhere probably not until the dual clutch gearbox arrives.
A good perspective.I drove a basic 997 C2 quite a bit - I found that dynamically it was pros and cons versus my E46, so the driving pleasure for me was pretty similar. The M3 on the other hand was far easier to use - easier to put stuff and people in, quieter and with better ride at a cruise, and generally more luxurious. And whatever the doubters have to say, I am confident I will find the E92 a step forward from the E46. So my decision in favour of E92 over 997 is not solely driven by the saving.
I found the price of the new car quite reasonable considering the spec which includes pro navigation and electric seats. If I had a 997 I would want a well equipped S and the price would be vastly higher.
I am not at all tempted by an M5 as an alternative - less wieldy, and with a gearbox which I find unacceptable. And for the moment Audi are opting out of the market, with a long gap expected between RS4 and RS5. Indeed, the way they market RS cars rules them out for me - they only introduce the RS models towards the end of the life of the base car. Since I like to buy cars new and keep them for quite a while I do not want them to look like the 'old' model for most of the time I have them. At the moment the only alternative to the E92 which I am considering is the S5 - not dynamically comparable, but a better looking and feeling machine inside and out IMO.
On balance though it is still an E92 for me, but as mentioned elsewhere probably not until the dual clutch gearbox arrives.
You did miss out the RS6 which is only about 6-9mths away & it is expected to walk all over the M5. The next RS4 is a good 3yrs off yet & will no doubt raise the bar even further, aimed squarely at the E92 M3. That said, i can't really see where either Audi & BMW are going to continue to make gains & given the C63 is out next year & that's meant to be a corker, i can't see where they'll all go next.
The RS5 is about 18-24mths away & i've still no idea what BMW they're aiming that at, given the press say it's gunning for the 3 Series Coupe, but the A5 platform is alot bigger than the current A4 & on a par with the A6, so more than a tad bigger than a 3 series coupe.
This is all great for the customer, but the statement "where does it all end" is a genuine concern. As said, close to 600BHP in a medium sized family saloon & perhaps 450-500 BHP in a small-medium family saloon/coupe is great fun, but a tad bonkers.
Once upon a time I used to think exactly the same way m12_nathan said:
You still would if you understood about torque at the wheels
If I could (can't due to having 2 kids and car seats!)I'd buy the new M3 anyday - not that I'm madly in love with diesels, I'm just happy with what I have today!
In fact I was thinking about getting a Quattroporte after the 535d but this car has impressed me so much that I forget it's a diesel at times!
Now back to the topic......
Drove a Quattroporte around Millbrook last week & i was very unimpressed.
As for the 535D, i had an M-Sport Saloon which quickly collected some DMS performance & the car was mind-blowing. I only sold it as the number of miles i was clocking up reduced drastically (that soon changed again & shot up) so felt a Diesel was not needed & had issues regarding petrol head vs diesel head & finally i hated filling the car up from the smelly dirty pumps & having to wear those stupid gloves.
That said, a fantastic car & more than a match for most petrol performance cars. It would never overturn an RS4, RS6, M3 or M5 (except a very old M3) no matter how much torque they have, but still a great motor.
As for the 535D, i had an M-Sport Saloon which quickly collected some DMS performance & the car was mind-blowing. I only sold it as the number of miles i was clocking up reduced drastically (that soon changed again & shot up) so felt a Diesel was not needed & had issues regarding petrol head vs diesel head & finally i hated filling the car up from the smelly dirty pumps & having to wear those stupid gloves.
That said, a fantastic car & more than a match for most petrol performance cars. It would never overturn an RS4, RS6, M3 or M5 (except a very old M3) no matter how much torque they have, but still a great motor.
waremark said:
I am not at all tempted by an M5 as an alternative - less wieldy, and with a gearbox which I find unacceptable.
Is that verdict on the gearbox based on any experience at all, experience over several days or what you've read?The M5 is inevitably less wieldy than a 911 or M3 given its size and weight, but it's bloody amazing considering those two factors (Iam acutely aware of the difference having swapped into an M5 from a CSL). I really don't see why people complain so much about the gearbox. It works well, except for being sloer than that in the CSL. It can be annoying occasionally in town with its auto change down to first sometimes not fitting in with what you want it to do, but manuals can be frustrating too and autos are just horrible.
As for a 580 bhp RS6 stealing the M5's crown, the last RS6 had considerably more power than the last M5, but didn't steal its crown because it couldn't match the handling. Unless Audi re-engineer the A6 platform for the RS6 to move the engine behind the front axle, I expect it to have the same issues as the last one in that respect.
Zod said:
waremark said:
I am not at all tempted by an M5 as an alternative - less wieldy, and with a gearbox which I find unacceptable.
Is that verdict on the gearbox based on any experience at all, experience over several days or what you've read?The M5 is inevitably less wieldy than a 911 or M3 given its size and weight, but it's bloody amazing considering those two factors (Iam acutely aware of the difference having swapped into an M5 from a CSL). I really don't see why people complain so much about the gearbox. It works well, except for being sloer than that in the CSL. It can be annoying occasionally in town with its auto change down to first sometimes not fitting in with what you want it to do, but manuals can be frustrating too and autos are just horrible.
As for a 580 bhp RS6 stealing the M5's crown, the last RS6 had considerably more power than the last M5, but didn't steal its crown because it couldn't match the handling. Unless Audi re-engineer the A6 platform for the RS6 to move the engine behind the front axle, I expect it to have the same issues as the last one in that respect.
Although the new RS6 is not announced as regards full specification, it's widely expected to follow the RS4 in being the better handling as the weight at the front will be slashed & the Quattro will be RWD biaised. The current RS4 appears to be matching if not beating the new M3 in terms of handling & performance etc. however for the drifters & those that don't need wet weather handling etc. the M3 will be the prefered tool given it's totally RWD.
No-one knows yet for sure how the new RS6 will perform, but having come from an E60 M5 to an RS4, i know for sure that 90% of the time the RS4 is quicker than the M5 everywhere other than a drag strip. If the RS6 carries this over from the RS4, with an extra 150BHP a huge dollop of additional torque & say a weight of no more than the current M5, then it can't fail to take the crown. Likely though the next generation M5 will at least match the then out of production RS6 & even maybe raise the bar.
Zod said:
waremark said:
I am not at all tempted by an M5 as an alternative - less wieldy, and with a gearbox which I find unacceptable.
Is that verdict on the gearbox based on any experience at all, experience over several days or what you've read?waremark said:
Zod said:
waremark said:
I am not at all tempted by an M5 as an alternative - less wieldy, and with a gearbox which I find unacceptable.
Is that verdict on the gearbox based on any experience at all, experience over several days or what you've read?stevesingo said:
3, So M3's will sell like hotcakes until something better will come along and then the Jones' will be clambering to buy the next big thing. What will that be...M3CS/CSL. Oh Dear. So all of the M3 owners run back to the dealers and trade in their one year old M3's (with a pretty big loss I imagine) for the CS/CSL for about £55k plus and the CS/CSL's fly out of the showroom. The dealers are left with plenty of M3's to sell at a profit as a bonus.
I feel there may be some accuracy in this comment. We have all read that BMW is readying a CSL version of this car much earlier than they did with the E46 CSL. Perhaps THAT is really the new M3 that we have all been waiting for and this version in the meantime is a `M3 lite'. At the end of the day they are a business whose primary concern is making money.........??
disad-vantage-d said:
stevesingo said:
3, So M3's will sell like hotcakes until something better will come along and then the Jones' will be clambering to buy the next big thing. What will that be...M3CS/CSL. Oh Dear. So all of the M3 owners run back to the dealers and trade in their one year old M3's (with a pretty big loss I imagine) for the CS/CSL for about £55k plus and the CS/CSL's fly out of the showroom. The dealers are left with plenty of M3's to sell at a profit as a bonus.
I feel there may be some accuracy in this comment. We have all read that BMW is readying a CSL version of this car much earlier than they did with the E46 CSL. Perhaps THAT is really the new M3 that we have all been waiting for and this version in the meantime is a `M3 lite'. At the end of the day they are a business whose primary concern is making money.........??Maybe BMW have learnt something from the E46 ie 3 variants being the Standard Spec, CS and CSL.
Either way, i'm still holding on to my deposit!
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