CSL Vs 911 Turbo...
Discussion
Zod said:
alexarm said:
There is a lot on this thread I disagree with. Apart from the main point about a CSL being as quick if not quicker than a 996tt (which is simply not true)
overall, I agree with you, but Horst von Saurma of Sport Auto took the CSL round the Ring faster than the 996TT. Now the CSL was developed with a strong focus on being quick at the Ring, so that means little on other tracks or on the road. One thing about PH though is you always know that whenever there is a debate about an M BMW, it will attract hordes of people to put it down, in case the upstart is seen to challenge the establishment. BY the same token, there will be a solid core of M car fans to defend their homour.
Edited by Zod on Thursday 7th December 15:35
I thought we'd already decided it was because I'm an awesome driver?
klm said:
Jesus, I'm going down to the local playgroup, bit more sense being spoke down there, I just wish people would get the true facts before they spout crap on net forums.
Steady!
I have seen far worse threads in fairness, klm.
What exactly do you find so innacurate in the thread?
OK, so i was mislead by the dealer regarding the cardboard boot floor. What else?
To be honest, i could question your statement that your friends CSL was worse on power after tuning work. Either the work was done by a cowboy and has messed the engine's output up or the figures before / after are not being compared properly.
The Thorney stage 2, for example, (exhaust, performance cats and remap) may not provide a lot more power on paper but, talking to an owner just last night, it makes it a quicker and nicer car because of the better delivery allied to the modest bhp and torque gain.
Ask 10 people about this sort of thing and you'll get several shades of opinion.
Worry not.
alexarm said:
There is a lot on this thread I disagree with. Apart from the main point about a CSL being as quick if not quicker than a 996tt (which is simply not true) the part about the rolling road made me chukcle.
Something about picking up the fronts wheels and thinking you are stuck? What on earth are people talking about? How do you think you test any rear wheel drive car?
Also why not just pop on a Dyno (with the rear wheels off) attached directly to the hub at somewhere like Abbey Motorsport? I've heard some rubbish on Forums but unless i'm missing something this sounds hilarious??!!
Back on the topic of this tread, on track at somewhere like Bedford a CSL will do a max 140-145mph (if you are very lucky)down the back straight. The Porker will hit 150-155mph easily if you have the balls to brake that late.
Alex
Something about picking up the fronts wheels and thinking you are stuck? What on earth are people talking about? How do you think you test any rear wheel drive car?
Also why not just pop on a Dyno (with the rear wheels off) attached directly to the hub at somewhere like Abbey Motorsport? I've heard some rubbish on Forums but unless i'm missing something this sounds hilarious??!!
Back on the topic of this tread, on track at somewhere like Bedford a CSL will do a max 140-145mph (if you are very lucky)down the back straight. The Porker will hit 150-155mph easily if you have the balls to brake that late.
Alex
I've seen indicated 148-149 on the back straight at bedford, 145 is easy.
As for finding the dyno thing hilarious? Why? Just because other rear wheel drive cars don't limit themselves to a lower rev limit why does that mean that the m3cslm5m6 don't do it? The abbey Hub dyno will still have the same problem with having to trick the car into running to 8k rpm, the fact that it is attached to the hubs rather than being a set of rollers doesn't make a difference, the rear wheels are turning and the fronts are not. It obviously can be done but I know Thorney has had issues with some cars refusing to rev above 6k rpm on occasion even when trying to do the dsc tricks (as an example, if you just try and blip the throttle with the car sat on the drive it limits itself to 6k too).
m12_nathan said:
alexarm said:
There is a lot on this thread I disagree with. Apart from the main point about a CSL being as quick if not quicker than a 996tt (which is simply not true) the part about the rolling road made me chukcle.
Something about picking up the fronts wheels and thinking you are stuck? What on earth are people talking about? How do you think you test any rear wheel drive car?
Also why not just pop on a Dyno (with the rear wheels off) attached directly to the hub at somewhere like Abbey Motorsport? I've heard some rubbish on Forums but unless i'm missing something this sounds hilarious??!!
Back on the topic of this tread, on track at somewhere like Bedford a CSL will do a max 140-145mph (if you are very lucky)down the back straight. The Porker will hit 150-155mph easily if you have the balls to brake that late.
Alex
Something about picking up the fronts wheels and thinking you are stuck? What on earth are people talking about? How do you think you test any rear wheel drive car?
Also why not just pop on a Dyno (with the rear wheels off) attached directly to the hub at somewhere like Abbey Motorsport? I've heard some rubbish on Forums but unless i'm missing something this sounds hilarious??!!
Back on the topic of this tread, on track at somewhere like Bedford a CSL will do a max 140-145mph (if you are very lucky)down the back straight. The Porker will hit 150-155mph easily if you have the balls to brake that late.
Alex
I've seen indicated 148-149 on the back straight at bedford, 145 is easy.
As for finding the dyno thing hilarious? Why? Just because other rear wheel drive cars don't limit themselves to a lower rev limit why does that mean that the m3cslm5m6 don't do it? The abbey Hub dyno will still have the same problem with having to trick the car into running to 8k rpm, the fact that it is attached to the hubs rather than being a set of rollers doesn't make a difference, the rear wheels are turning and the fronts are not. It obviously can be done but I know Thorney has had issues with some cars refusing to rev above 6k rpm on occasion even when trying to do the dsc tricks (as an example, if you just try and blip the throttle with the car sat on the drive it limits itself to 6k too).
yep I understand now...at first I thought it was related to the dyno itself !! Been a long day.
Regarding Bedford, every CSL that has followed me in my 230BHP NA Honda Elise has lost ground down the straight and my speedo is 100% accurate and 140-145 is as fast as that would go and it has a power to weight ratio of around 285bhp / tonne.
The amount of over exgaeration that goes on regarding speeds down that straight and through the chicane is very funny.
Alex
m12_nathan said:
Honestly it does show that. The CSL speedo is not that accurate though. Your 140-145 may well be spot on for real speed but I don't have a data logger to confirm. Honda Elises are awesome by the way, what Lotus should've done to begin with.
Yep...they should have. But Honda would not sell their engines to anybody. I'm not sure how Atom put them in as new? They are also a very pricey engine...second are the only way for the Lotus...great cars though yeah...(cheers)
My BMW going in for DMS treatment (535D) and then going to take to a Bedford day for a laugh !!!
Alex
alexarm said:
m12_nathan said:
Honestly it does show that. The CSL speedo is not that accurate though. Your 140-145 may well be spot on for real speed but I don't have a data logger to confirm. Honda Elises are awesome by the way, what Lotus should've done to begin with.
Yep...they should have. But Honda would not sell their engines to anybody. I'm not sure how Atom put them in as new? They are also a very pricey engine...second are the only way for the Lotus...great cars though yeah...(cheers)
My BMW going in for DMS treatment (535D) and then going to take to a Bedford day for a laugh !!!
Alex
Honda do indeed sell the CTR engine to Atom I believe. You are right though they are very expensive and I think this is the primary reason Lotus went for the second best product, the toyota unit.
klm said:
my mate had a car messed about with and said yeah it's alot quicker, untill he put it on the rollers, boy did he get a shock.
It was worse than official figures.
Just take the bhp gains claim with a pinch of salt.
As I said before, my mate Csl has got the full Supersprint system with race kats
It was worse than official figures.
Just take the bhp gains claim with a pinch of salt.
As I said before, my mate Csl has got the full Supersprint system with race kats
Hmmmmmmmmm............
A decent place like Thorney Motorsport do not lie about power gains, in fact they admit the gains on the CSL are modest.
What you do get is a little more power and torque, the slight flat spot in the mid-range on the standard car is removed, the top speed limiter is removed and the engine is quicker revving above 6000 rpm.
A tidy change i'd say. No salt necessary.
What you do get is a little more power and torque, the slight flat spot in the mid-range on the standard car is removed, the top speed limiter is removed and the engine is quicker revving above 6000 rpm.
A tidy change i'd say. No salt necessary.
alexarm said:
m12_nathan said:
alexarm said:
There is a lot on this thread I disagree with. Apart from the main point about a CSL being as quick if not quicker than a 996tt (which is simply not true) the part about the rolling road made me chukcle.
Something about picking up the fronts wheels and thinking you are stuck? What on earth are people talking about? How do you think you test any rear wheel drive car?
Also why not just pop on a Dyno (with the rear wheels off) attached directly to the hub at somewhere like Abbey Motorsport? I've heard some rubbish on Forums but unless i'm missing something this sounds hilarious??!!
Back on the topic of this tread, on track at somewhere like Bedford a CSL will do a max 140-145mph (if you are very lucky)down the back straight. The Porker will hit 150-155mph easily if you have the balls to brake that late.
Alex
Something about picking up the fronts wheels and thinking you are stuck? What on earth are people talking about? How do you think you test any rear wheel drive car?
Also why not just pop on a Dyno (with the rear wheels off) attached directly to the hub at somewhere like Abbey Motorsport? I've heard some rubbish on Forums but unless i'm missing something this sounds hilarious??!!
Back on the topic of this tread, on track at somewhere like Bedford a CSL will do a max 140-145mph (if you are very lucky)down the back straight. The Porker will hit 150-155mph easily if you have the balls to brake that late.
Alex
I've seen indicated 148-149 on the back straight at bedford, 145 is easy.
As for finding the dyno thing hilarious? Why? Just because other rear wheel drive cars don't limit themselves to a lower rev limit why does that mean that the m3cslm5m6 don't do it? The abbey Hub dyno will still have the same problem with having to trick the car into running to 8k rpm, the fact that it is attached to the hubs rather than being a set of rollers doesn't make a difference, the rear wheels are turning and the fronts are not. It obviously can be done but I know Thorney has had issues with some cars refusing to rev above 6k rpm on occasion even when trying to do the dsc tricks (as an example, if you just try and blip the throttle with the car sat on the drive it limits itself to 6k too).
yep I understand now...at first I thought it was related to the dyno itself !! Been a long day.
Regarding Bedford, every CSL that has followed me in my 230BHP NA Honda Elise has lost ground down the straight and my speedo is 100% accurate and 140-145 is as fast as that would go and it has a power to weight ratio of around 285bhp / tonne.
The amount of over exgaeration that goes on regarding speeds down that straight and through the chicane is very funny.
Alex
I'd be quite impressed by a stock turbo on road tyres doing a real 150 there. Would need to be able to carry a lot of speed through the chicane and indeed out of the previous corner. I can get my car to early 150s indicated on trackday tyres, and I *think* the Porsche speedo overread is 10% capped at 5mph. I'm not the quickest, but finding another real 10mph+ seems like a big ask especially on standard suspension etc.
I definitely can't keep up with a supercharged honda Elise our Audi one. They just outgun on the straight.
Edited by DanH on Friday 8th December 13:22
Beemer-5 said:
klm said:
my mate had a car messed about with and said yeah it's alot quicker, untill he put it on the rollers, boy did he get a shock.
It was worse than official figures.
Just take the bhp gains claim with a pinch of salt.
As I said before, my mate Csl has got the full Supersprint system with race kats
It was worse than official figures.
Just take the bhp gains claim with a pinch of salt.
As I said before, my mate Csl has got the full Supersprint system with race kats
Hmmmmmmmmm............
Yes, my mate had "a car" messed about with
And my other mate had a full SuperSprint on his "Csl"
Can't see where I said the "Csl" has been tuned
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM god you get some Divs on these forums, really sad that they read something that is not there, try getting out more, maybe to buy a new anorak
klm said:
Beemer-5 said:
klm said:
my mate had a car messed about with and said yeah it's alot quicker, untill he put it on the rollers, boy did he get a shock.
It was worse than official figures.
Just take the bhp gains claim with a pinch of salt.
As I said before, my mate Csl has got the full Supersprint system with race kats
It was worse than official figures.
Just take the bhp gains claim with a pinch of salt.
As I said before, my mate Csl has got the full Supersprint system with race kats
Hmmmmmmmmm............
Yes, my mate had "a car" messed about with
And my other mate had a full SuperSprint on his "Csl"
Can't see where I said the "Csl" has been tuned
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM god you get some Divs on these forums, really sad that they read something that is not there, try getting out more, maybe to buy a new anorak
In Beemer-5's defence, it seemed to me like you said your mate's car that had been messed with was a CSL - "as I said earlier" seemed in reference to the messed about with car.
Don't think there's much need to refer to people as "divs" though mate, chill out a bit.
Have a look at www.track-challenge.com and do a comparision between the CSL and 911 TT.
CSL // 911 TT
0 - 40 Km/h 1,4 s // 1,2 s
0 - 60 Km/h 2,2 s // 1,9 s
0 - 80 Km/h 3,6 s // 3,2 s
0 - 100 Km/h 4,8 s // 4,2 s
0 - 120 Km/h 6,8 s // 5,9 s
0 - 140 Km/h 8,6 s // 7,4 s
0 - 160 Km/h 10,8 s // 9,4 s
0 - 180 Km/h 14,2 s // 11,9 s
0 - 200 Km/h 16,7 s // 14,6 s
and
Elasticity (4./5./6.)
CSL // 911 TT
80 - 100 Km/h 2,7 s / 3,5 s / 4,1 s // 1,7 s / 2,4 s / 3,4 s
80 - 120 Km/h 5,1 s / 6,9 s / 8,7 s // 3,5 s / 4,5 s / 6,1 s
80 - 160 Km/h 10 s / 13,5 s / 18,1 s // 7,6 s / 9,2 s / 12,1 s
80 - 180 Km/h 13,2 s / 17,1 s / 23,7 s // 9,6 s / 11,7 s / 15,4 s
80 - 200 Km/h - s / - s / - s // 12,3 s / 14,6 s / 18,9 s
This looks like a pretty clear performance difference, IMHO
Edit: Sorry about the crap formatting
CSL // 911 TT
0 - 40 Km/h 1,4 s // 1,2 s
0 - 60 Km/h 2,2 s // 1,9 s
0 - 80 Km/h 3,6 s // 3,2 s
0 - 100 Km/h 4,8 s // 4,2 s
0 - 120 Km/h 6,8 s // 5,9 s
0 - 140 Km/h 8,6 s // 7,4 s
0 - 160 Km/h 10,8 s // 9,4 s
0 - 180 Km/h 14,2 s // 11,9 s
0 - 200 Km/h 16,7 s // 14,6 s
and
Elasticity (4./5./6.)
CSL // 911 TT
80 - 100 Km/h 2,7 s / 3,5 s / 4,1 s // 1,7 s / 2,4 s / 3,4 s
80 - 120 Km/h 5,1 s / 6,9 s / 8,7 s // 3,5 s / 4,5 s / 6,1 s
80 - 160 Km/h 10 s / 13,5 s / 18,1 s // 7,6 s / 9,2 s / 12,1 s
80 - 180 Km/h 13,2 s / 17,1 s / 23,7 s // 9,6 s / 11,7 s / 15,4 s
80 - 200 Km/h - s / - s / - s // 12,3 s / 14,6 s / 18,9 s
This looks like a pretty clear performance difference, IMHO
Edit: Sorry about the crap formatting
Edited by rassi on Saturday 9th December 11:40
klm said:
Beemer-5 said:
klm said:
my mate had a car messed about with and said yeah it's alot quicker, untill he put it on the rollers, boy did he get a shock.
It was worse than official figures.
Just take the bhp gains claim with a pinch of salt.
As I said before, my mate Csl has got the full Supersprint system with race kats
It was worse than official figures.
Just take the bhp gains claim with a pinch of salt.
As I said before, my mate Csl has got the full Supersprint system with race kats
Hmmmmmmmmm............
Yes, my mate had "a car" messed about with
And my other mate had a full SuperSprint on his "Csl"
Can't see where I said the "Csl" has been tuned
***In which case your whole point was invalid, but i don't expect you to grasp that, at least now i have read a few more posts from you***
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM god you get some Divs on these forums, really sad that they read something that is not there, try getting out more, maybe to buy a new anorak
I will tell you something straight.
Looking back through your posts it is very clear that you are little short of an aggressive, argumentative fool, who is unnecessarily rude and arrogant towards others.
When and if you remove the giant-sized chip on your shoulder i will discuss cars with you.
Until then, you are welcome to fire off your childish bile, but it will go unanswered.
Idiot clown.
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