P5 Puredrive vs Gaz

[StressedDave]

Ab Shocks said:

ryan-isla said:

You obviously know about dampers and suspension set ups, if so, do you know a man called David Lyon ? He is definately one of the best in the business. Probably in the top 10 in the country (maybe top 5). If im wrong, who is ? We are talking about all forms of motor sport from oval racing to gravel rallying. Not just sprinting.

You must be an ex Leda customer to know Dave Lyon and for those that don't know, he is now the motorsport guru at Gaz and is God as far as I'm concerned.

I know of Dave, but have never worked with him - I mainly worked with Koni. But if I could inject a word of caution - providing dampers for a motorsport activity is significantly different to doing the same for a primarily road based application. Effectively a motorsport setup is all about providing the maximum grip with the maximum amount of control - optimising a single design point. A road based application has to deal with huge variations in road conditions, variations in loading (just having a passenger makes a difference to the whole thing) and the fact that unless you've screwed up royally, you're nowhere near the limit of grip.

In terms of asking advice, I'd talk to as many of the protagonists as possible, and try the setups out if you can - on really roads so you can see if you can live with the compromises you'll probably have to make.

[Ab Shocks]

StressedDave said:

In terms of asking advice, I'd talk to as many of the protagonists as possible, and try the setups out if you can - on really roads so you can see if you can live with the compromises you'll probably have to make.

This all makes sense to me and Tony at WIM is talking about having a demonstrator on site for people to test drive. Mind you with a massive range of spring/damper options on the "Pro Series" how do we set it up?

I also had MX-5 car parts on the phone this morning asking about options on the standard nickel range and it may be that we will offer a daily driver kit on this range as well as an alternative to the fast road kit.

[StressedDave]

To my mind, you'd set up the best you can rather than worrying about a bewildering array of options. As an example firms like Manthey Racing offer just one of everything - one replacement wing, one suspension kit, etc whereas other tuning firms offer several options. If you're really doing your best, you'll find there is just one solution rather than a series. You might make some small changes to high speed rebound damping but that's normally about it.

[Ab Shocks]

StressedDave said:

To my mind, you'd set up the best you can rather than worrying about a bewildering array of options. As an example firms like Manthey Racing offer just one of everything - one replacement wing, one suspension kit, etc whereas other tuning firms offer several options. If you're really doing your best, you'll find there is just one solution rather than a series. You might make some small changes to high speed rebound damping but that's normally about it.

In a perfect world you would be right but we are taking about the best selling sports car in the world and having a "one kit fits all" solution is not possible with such a varied ownership.
That's what the Pro kit is all about, it is a bespoke kit that is adaptable for a variety of requirements, as long as you discuss usage before building the kit.

[Ab Shocks]

kevham said:

As Ab Shocks said, a track/road setup is always a big compromise and I'm not sure that most customers will really understand that.

I agree that the complications can seem daunting and the added factor of aftermarket kit already fitted to the cars can further muddy the water, I'm talking chassis braces, heavier ARBs, polybushing etc etc.

However, we now generally know what to do to counteract most of these problems and I have authorised a free spring exchange where our original solution fails and if a re-valve is the only answer, so be it.

[StressedDave]

Ab Shocks said:

StressedDave said:

To my mind, you'd set up the best you can rather than worrying about a bewildering array of options. As an example firms like Manthey Racing offer just one of everything - one replacement wing, one suspension kit, etc whereas other tuning firms offer several options. If you're really doing your best, you'll find there is just one solution rather than a series. You might make some small changes to high speed rebound damping but that's normally about it.

In a perfect world you would be right but we are taking about the best selling sports car in the world and having a "one kit fits all" solution is not possible with such a varied ownership.
That's what the Pro kit is all about, it is a bespoke kit that is adaptable for a variety of requirements, as long as you discuss usage before building the kit.

Actually, that's the point I'm trying to make - with such a varied list of possible bits that have been messed around with, you'd be better off picking a stock vehicle and changing just the springs and dampers and showing what you can really do rather than requiring a customer to mess around with bushes, ARBs, bracing and the like. It's far easier to rely on a single setup as reference and let the customer do the fiddling around if they think they can do better. Trying to cater for a disparate user set with a single damper (unless you really like revalving every damper everytime you sell one) configuration is folly IMHO.

[wheels-inmotion]

I don't thinks AB's is suggesting the customer "mucks" around with anything, rather offering alternative suspension to tune the chassis for those who have or those who intend to "muck around".

It's no different to my industry, i ask the owner what he expects from the handling "domestic/ fast road/ track" or whatever and i calibrate the chassis to suit but the calibration will not suit all formats.

Offering "specific" coilovers tailored at no extra cost surly must be a good thing?... I feel this option will scare other manufacturers but like i said "things move on".

[StressedDave]

wheels-inmotion said:

Offering "specific" coilovers tailored at no extra cost surly must be a good thing?... I feel this option will scare other manufacturers but like i said "things move on".

Absolutely, but I'm not sure you quite realise how much effort has to go in to setting damping rates for a single application. Any engineer will tell you you can't look at a set of springs and go 'I know just the damper rates that will work with that'. Traditionally the UK market has tended to provide a wide range of 'adjustment' so you can get something that 'works', but that's an inordinately long way away from something that is optimal.

As I said, for a demonstrator you want to get something that is close to perfect, then you'll find most of your clientele want that rather than messing around with whichever setup they've already got fitted. IME when it comes to handling, the client is invariably wrong, usually because they have little reference to fall back on.

[maz8062]

This thread has got way too technical - I imagine any interested punters have long switched off

Happy New Year

[wheels-inmotion]

maz8062 said:

This thread has got way too technical - I imagine any interested punters have long switched off

Happy New Year

I'm not so sure?... This sort of informations not normally on the label so interested parties may welcome this "debate".

Happy new year to you too.

[wheels-inmotion]

StressedDave said:

wheels-inmotion said:

Offering "specific" coilovers tailored at no extra cost surly must be a good thing?... I feel this option will scare other manufacturers but like i said "things move on".

Absolutely, but I'm not sure you quite realise how much effort has to go in to setting damping rates for a single application. Any engineer will tell you you can't look at a set of springs and go 'I know just the damper rates that will work with that'. Traditionally the UK market has tended to provide a wide range of 'adjustment' so you can get something that 'works', but that's an inordinately long way away from something that is optimal.

As I said, for a demonstrator you want to get something that is close to perfect, then you'll find most of your clientele want that rather than messing around with whichever setup they've already got fitted. IME when it comes to handling, the client is invariably wrong, usually because they have little reference to fall back on.

I'm reasonably clued up on damper/ chassis frequency's, not as much as AB's but i do hear what you are saying.... Maybe the point that's missing is the GAZ gold kits come in five different "near perfect" varieties, each of which can be tuned for that particular application... Happy days!

As for the final chassis calibration i absolutely agree with you but! a good tuner can calibrate 99% of the chassis born from the owners misguided understanding of what the chassis is actually doing.... It's always been up to us to read in between the lines, nothing new there?

[Ab Shocks]

maz8062 said:

This thread has got way too technical - I imagine any interested punters have long switched off

Happy New Year

I take your point because these threads can get a tad on the commercial side and end up too full of vested interest and partisan crowing, I would just want to know how to get my 5 going round corners for a resonable price and I can get cars on Avo, Spax, Gaz,KYB and uncle Tom Cobbley to handle with a bit of fiddling about.

I think we can put this to bed by saying that going to the expert you trust should get you the handling package you need and if you go to Phil or Tony I would hope that this would be the case, I would also add in people like Paul Sheard in Congleton for people up North who may have other alternatives for you.

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYBODY

Edited by Ab Shocks on Thursday 1st January 12:53

Edited by Ab Shocks on Thursday 1st January 12:54

[maz8062]

Ab Shocks said:

I think we can put this to bed by saying that going to the expert you trust should get you the handling package you need and if you go to Phil or Tony I would hope that this would be the case, I would also add in people like Paul Sheard in Congleton for people up North who may have other alternatives for you.

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYBODY

Indeed!

[kevham]

maz8062 said:

This thread has got way too technical - I imagine any interested punters have long switched off

Happy New Year

It has been technical but it has been one of the most interesting threads on here for a long, long time. It has kindled my interest in learning a wee bit more about chassis dynamics - at least so I can try and better explain to the experts what I am looking for from my car.

I'm also glad there hasn't been too much competitor bashing either because that would certainly put me off.

Happy New Year to everyone.

[Phil @ P5]

Chassis tuning is very beneficial, but I would also say driver training is just as important. I picked up a huge amount of grip and speed through the corners by changing my driving style and that's not something that you learn on your own. I thought I was a fair driver until I was showed where I could improve.

Phil

[ryan-isla]

At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. Just come along to a couple of rounds of http://www.ma5daracing.com/ and ask the drivers what they think is a good all round suspension set up. If these guys (and girls) don't know, nobody does. We will go round in circles forever otherwise.

[MX-5 Lazza]

ryan-isla said:

At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding. Just come along to a couple of rounds of http://www.ma5daracing.com/ and ask the drivers what they think is a good all round suspension set up. If these guys (and girls) don't know, nobody does. We will go round in circles forever otherwise.

Well they'll be able to tell you about track setups but as far as I kn ow none of them drive their racing cars home after the evens so they don't care about ride quality. IMO the people you should listen to most are those that have tried a number of different off-the-shelf options (the ones you are most likely to buy). People like MadAboutMX5
However, this debate is very interesting - education is never a bad thing as long as first hand experience is considered along with the technical facts/theories.

[wheels-inmotion]

It's unusual to have developers in the same thread answering questions directly to members and indeed each other.... I think it's a healthy thing and welcome more of this in the future.

A happy new year to us all.

[matt uk]

Happy new year to all!

I am reading this thread with interest, and admit that as a complete chassis novice some of the technical stuff is beyond me.

I have been considering a P5 kit to replace the current springs and dampers and have earmarked £500 for it, but I am a bit confused...

I like the way my stock Mk1 MX5 handles and have not driven / been in uprated cars to benchmark the differences. I like how predictable it is and the fact that I can 'feel' what the car is doing at the limit.

I am sure that the uprated kits will make it faster, but as a new-track-day-goer, I'm not sure that 'going faster' is my objective.

So, some questions;

Will these upgrades simply make the cornering limits higher?
And as such will it just mean that when the car does start to let go it will break away quicker and at a higher speed?
Will I create a car that is beyond my talents to drive it at and beyond the limit, like I can with the car now?
Will the car be 'less playful'?

Now wondering whether to invest that £500 in lots more trackdays and just get on with the job of enjoying the car on the standard set up.

Comments on this from anyone who has been in a similar situation would be most useful.

Cheers,
Matt

[MX-5 Lazza]

Well what you won't be doing by uprating the suspension is adding more grip. You will add more control so you can increase your entry & exit speeds and make it easier to control the car in corners so will improve your overall speed.

On rough/bumpy roads you need some compliance to keep the tyres in contact with the ground which is generally why a full track setup is no good on the road whereas on the track you want some stiffness to help avoid too much roll without having to resort to big anti-roll bars. I'm not techy enough to be able to explain it but I do appreciate how it feels on the road & track.

I'm sure one of the experts will be along soon to answer that question better than me though.