Why so high?

[roscobbc]

Nice looking car - I'm curious to know the spec' of your engine (does it have rectangular or oval port heads - and the cam?) - my 'take' on your car is not to even consider doing anything to it other than taking it back to the spec' it was originally built with.
Heat soak, yes, and planty of it - over the years any remaining heat insulation will have either become ineffective or fallen away. I have a '68 427 4 speed Vette, and yes heat soak can be really overwhelming......in fact during summer T roofs come-off and rear window comes out for the rest of the season (unless raining) - if caught in a motorway hold-up (and the Dartford Crossing being so close to me holds horrors) I have to choose between turning the engine-off......and the likelyhood of it not starting due to starter heat soak.......or leaving it running and creating a heat haze over the car like a scene from a desert movie. The resultant blast of superheated air that comes out from under the dash when you do pull away is enough to make your eyes water!
I have modified mine......but, but, but its all reversible.....so the pro-touring'ish 18's and Toyos can be replaced with stock wheels (no flared arches). The 'built' stroker 489 cu in 570 hp engine can always be replaced with the oem L36 427. It runs 2450 rpm at 70 mph in 4th with its original 3.08 rear end and on a run will cruise effortless at 50 mph all day - 70 mph on cooler days ......and will pull a couple more mpg's than the OEM 427, yet take it up to the rev limiter in 1st gear and you're over UK national speed limit. Clutch in yours sounds 'old school' - modern twin plate units have lighter pedal pressure athough perhaps tricky to set-up. I've had a Centerforce dual friction unit in mine for the last 10 years or so - it has a fairly light action and copes well with the high ratio rear end, 2.20 1st gear, sticky rear tyres and 600 ft/lbs torque. Welcome to the thread!
PS - read through the other posts - yes, as a London car a Vintage Air install wouldn't detract from its value - if that engine is a 425 hp unit it should show a clean pair of heels to most other cars.......the silly 4.11 axle will hold you back and require needless gearchanges. Wouldn't mind betting that cam is an old school grind with a 2500 - 5500 power band or higher.

Edited by roscobbc on Monday 24th July 02:10

[newsatten]

Harry Flashman said:

aeropilot said:

newsatten said:

Dodgy dash aside , which I actually think is proper 70’s cool
And whether it’s a genny SS,
Which is only an accessory pack option,
I’d love it,
Guys it’s a 427 BB M21 tranny, cowl induction hood,
Fathom Green,
And it’s a 69’ which is always popular

Absolutely.
It's almost the perfect spec for a '69.
A clone COPO or Yenko is a much better bet as you can enjoy the bloody thing by ragging the tits off of it, rather than be scared to take it out the garage.

You guys have indeed been discussing my new purchase apparently!

It's a COPO, apparently, according to all the magazines I got in a box of stuff, including 1990s magazine features and all the stuff from the Goodwood concourse it was in, ages ago. But was originally yellow, not green, and has some non period mods like electronic ignition. So I'm sceptical...

Guy who bought it from Collecting Cars sold it on fast. He apparently has 30+ cars and I guess the Vato wasn't used/didn't make the grade. I got it for quite a lot less than that auction, so am budgeting for issues when I dig deeper. Thread on it in Readers Cars, so if anyone has tips, as this is my first foray into US classics, pleas help!






This car sold at auction a couple of months back and within a fortnight was on Evilbay with about a 20k whacked on the hammer price,
Nice work if one can get it!
Obviously I’ve no idea what you paid for it but as ever that’s totally irrelevant, you’re happy with it then it’s a deal!

Fabulous looking car with so many great parts,
The clutch is sortable so get that sorted then just rag it!!

Very envious! Enjoy son

[SRT Hellcat]

Harry Flashman said:

Any Camaro folk on here? I've been directed here from my Readers' Cars thread as I bought a 69 Camaro big block SS recently, with zero research or preparation, and want to treat this car well...

The thread I started, for reference and so I don't just repost it all here and bore everyone!

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

I was thinking of chopping it about for restomodding over the next few years (LS3 and modern auto etc), but am now questioning that, as it has turned out to be a real SS, with the 427 Corvette engine swap done by a US dealer brand new for a customer.

Help! Need to find the right folks in the UK for advice and support. I love the car, except for the lack of aircon and horribly stiff clutch.

It's been bounced through two auctions this year, so I am expecting some issues (all in my thread).

But it drives well, starts on the button, doesn't rattle or squeak and looks like it was restored last year. And it sounds RIDICULOUS.

Truth be told, I already love it.

congratulations Harry. It does look a lovely car. If it is a COPO 427 then leave it as it is and just have it fettled correctly. The heavy clutch can be sorted out with a more modern day unit. If it is running a 4:11 rear then a differential change would be a sensible thing to do to bring the revs way down at cruising/motorway speeds. Vintage air conditioning should be a relatively easy fit and it may not be too bad with regards to heat soak as you have a lot more engine bay than the Corvette. Most importantly enjoy

[sidewinder500]

Congrats here as well, Harry, it seems you did a good deal on it.
Supposedly it is a COPO-clone, as mine is, but done a long time ago, so it makes it a semi- original one and I would second the other posters to leave the mechanicals alone, except maybe AC or something elemental.
You should also keep everything just in case to retrofit comes sale time.
Hellcat believe me, heat soak is tremendous even with that engine bay, not too much room around and the interior seems to collect a heat ball in the footwell.

[sidewinder500]

And like rosco said, it would be interesting what ports and which cam and so on...

[Harry Flashman]

Thanks chaps. Very unwisely, I live in the middle of London. The car has to be capable of dealing with bad traffic, so the sad reality is that it has to be modified, or it has to go.

- Aircon for sure
- new heat insulation (thanks for that tip!),
- some sort of engine bay heat management (do exhaust wraps work?)
- a workable clutch, for someone who has been ignoring leg days recently, as a mate so charmingly put it. I have a feeling, as this car will live most of its life under 60mph, that the short ratio four Muncie box may be OK, actually.
- removal of slapper bars so that every speed bump doesn't give me a heart attack.

I have as options that I think will make the car more useable, generally, but may affect originality a lot more:

- front disc brakes (but I bet that doesn't work with the wheels, which I love).
- electronic fuel injection.

Obviously if none of this works, then an LS restomod would be the answer. At this point I'd have to ask myself whether it is worth somehow just finding one already done?

On the topic of the thread, I think prices are softening. I paid £38k for it all in, so there is room in the tank for some mods. I think I paid a fair price for a non original 427 and a great price if it turns out to be a COPO? Not much point in me being circumspect about the price as Historics publish it in their auction results. So if I sell the car, a Google search by a buyer on the registration would bring up this result. Little point in hiding it.

I have learned from you guys in this thread that the previous seller tried, unsuccessfully, to shift it on for a £20k profit. Seems the market isn't there, as he actually lost £6k on the £44k he paid. I paid well under his reserve, but it seems he had no room for the car and so agreed the price.

https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2023-0...

Rightly or wrongly, a 69 Camaro represents a childhood dream car for me, and neatly circumvents London's ULEZ charge, and allows me to tool around with kids in the back. But this may not have been a smart buy for what I want to use it for. Opinions from you experts on all of this would be welcome, as if mods would ruin the car, perhaps I need to join the community and swap it with someone who has a car better built to my needs, who wants a 427?

Edited by Harry Flashman on Monday 24th July 09:01

[Harry Flashman]

sidewinder500 said:

And like rosco said, it would be interesting what ports and which cam and so on...

I shall find out. Trying to piece together the history. It was restored by RPM in Guildford in 1993, after some history as a US dealer racer. It was originally yellow, too!

Any of you guys in or near London? Would love to meet and learn...

Have another pic, as I just love the way it looks and all my text is boring waffle!

Edited by Harry Flashman on Monday 24th July 08:58

[LeighW]

Harry Flashman said:

I shall find out. Trying to piece together the history. It was restored by RPM in Guildford in 1993, after some history as a US dealer racer. It was originally yellow, too!

Any of you guys in or near London? Would love to meet and learn...

Have another pic, as I just love the way it looks and all my text is boring waffle!

Edited by Harry Flashman on Monday 24th July 08:58

Absolutely stunning car Harry, I think £38k is a bit of a steal for what you have there. I'm over £30k into my 68 Firebird and it isn't half of the car you have, nor will it ever be. Can't say I'd want to be tooling round London in it, but then I wouldn't want to be driving anything around London tbh.

[Harry Flashman]

Agree on the London thing - it's why we have a Leaf as a runabout. But it's a soul destroying appliance for a petrolhead to be seen in...so on occasion, I want a real event car!

And thanks for the comments. I had a lot of immediate buyer's remorse and worry that I had done something really, really stupid (I went there looking for a Merc Pagoda, but this just seemed a bargain, given it's cosmetic condition, and I fell in love with it when I saw it parked up). You guys are helping to cure that.

It was a bad auction to sell an American car at. Seems everyone was there for British and German stuff. No-one there who really knew US cars, from my many conversations. Lesson learned, should I have to sell it.

Edited by Harry Flashman on Monday 24th July 09:36

[newsatten]

LeighW said:

Harry Flashman said:

I shall find out. Trying to piece together the history. It was restored by RPM in Guildford in 1993, after some history as a US dealer racer. It was originally yellow, too!

Any of you guys in or near London? Would love to meet and learn...

Have another pic, as I just love the way it looks and all my text is boring waffle!

Edited by Harry Flashman on Monday 24th July 08:58

Absolutely stunning car Harry, I think £38k is a bit of a steal for what you have there. I'm over £30k into my 68 Firebird and it isn't half of the car you have, nor will it ever be. Can't say I'd want to be tooling round London in it, but then I wouldn't want to be driving anything around London tbh.

There was only a about 700 genuine Copo Camaros
So it’s very very unlikely this is a real one,
1000’s of clones some good so not so good,
Yenko’s and Baldwin’s are very well documented
and have been for 40 years,

RPM are very well respected in the trade,
So it’s probably a good one if theve been involved with the car,
38k was a market value price ,
Go the resto mod route if you think it will turn the car into a M5 ? But the reality is it won’t!!
It’s almost a 60 year old platform and it will always be an old car, no matter what motor or trans or suspension blah blah,

Far easier to sell it again and buy a late Camaro

[aeropilot]

If the engine was installed by a dealer, then its NOT a COPO.

The whole point of COPO (Central Office Production Order) was that it was a special way for a dealer with clout, to be able to have the car built with the 427 installed on the production line.

The Yenko and Baldwin Motion cars were similar cars, but that these dealers converted themselves, so were converted from 396 cars delivered to the dealership. So this car will be something like that, but probably by a smaller less well known dealership.

If Martin at RPM was involved in doing this work on this car, then probably worth the trip out to Aldershot if you need additional work done on it, given he knows the car. Aldershot isn't too far outside of London for that.

Maybe worth taking the car to the US car show at Brooklands on 3rd Sunday of the September, given its a short drive out from London, as Martin and his son usually attend that show with some of the Mopar Muscle guys (I was talking to him there last year)

See here for Brooklands US car day...

https://www.brooklandsmuseum.com/whats-on/american...

Edited by aeropilot on Monday 24th July 11:34

[aeropilot]

SRT Hellcat said:

If it is running a 4:11 rear then a differential change would be a sensible thing to do to bring the revs way down at cruising/motorway speeds.

Or you could keep the 4:11's and fit one of the new Tremec TKX 5-speed boxes to replace the Muncie, as the new TKX box is now similar size to the old M20/1/2 boxes so needs less messing with mounts and stuff.

If this is an original dealer 427 build, I'd be inclined not to do that though.

If you are not going to be doing a lot of longer trips outside of central London though, the 4 speed and 4:11's are probably a good combo anyway...

While expensive, ceramic coating of the headers will help reduce underbonnet temps quite a bit (better than wrapping)

Fitting a Vintage Air a/c system is probably a good idea.

[aeropilot]

Harry Flashman said:

- front disc brakes (but I bet that doesn't work with the wheels, which I love).
- electronic fuel injection.

Obviously if none of this works, then an LS restomod would be the answer. At this point I'd have to ask myself whether it is worth somehow just finding one already done?

If the car has front drums, then it was likely built new by the dealer to be a drag car from new, as even the factory SS396 cars had front discs from memory, so may have been built from a small block car?
That seems a bit odd, unless dealer had a low spec SS car sitting unsold in dealership and sold it cheap, with the 427 conversion thrown in?

Fitting discs isn't going to affect its value.
Fitting fuel injection, if one of the modern carb look-a-like systems is OK, as long as you keep the original carb and stuff, should you want to sell it later.

While its your car and your money, I think you should consider selling it as it is rather than ruin it with fitting a LS motor and silly wheels for bigger brakes and all that crap, and just buy something like that already done, as it would be a lot cheaper. If you want a modern pro-touring style '69 Camaro, with modern running gear, then this really wasn't the car to buy. This is a nice period muscle car to be enjoyed as it pretty much is, for a period driving experience....but that's just my opinion.

Edited by aeropilot on Monday 24th July 10:54

[roscobbc]

aeropilot said:

While expensive, ceramic coating of the headers will help reduce underbonnet temps quite a bit (better than wrapping)

I have large tube ceramic coated Super Comps of my Vette and they certainly do run cooler than alternatives..........although the best for performance they do hang low so are not really a good street option (depending on application of course)

Edited by roscobbc on Monday 24th July 11:28

[roscobbc]

Harry Flashman said:

Agree on the London thing - it's why we have a Leaf as a runabout. But it's a soul destroying appliance for a petrolhead to be seen in...so on occasion, I want a real event car!

And thanks for the comments. I had a lot of immediate buyer's remorse and worry that I had done something really, really stupid (I went there looking for a Merc Pagoda, but this just seemed a bargain, given it's cosmetic condition, and I fell in love with it when I saw it parked up). You guys are helping to cure that.

It was a bad auction to sell an American car at. Seems everyone was there for British and German stuff. No-one there who really knew US cars, from my many conversations. Lesson learned, should I have to sell it.

Edited by Harry Flashman on Monday 24th July 09:36

I'm East London based......and yes for the last few years since the cycle networks were introduced and the evening domination of the West End streets of Uber type vehicles I've kept well away from the centre.

[Harry Flashman]

aeropilot said:

Harry Flashman said:

- front disc brakes (but I bet that doesn't work with the wheels, which I love).
- electronic fuel injection.

Obviously if none of this works, then an LS restomod would be the answer. At this point I'd have to ask myself whether it is worth somehow just finding one already done?

If the car has front drums, then it was likely built new by the dealer to be a drag car from new, as even the factory SS396 cars had front discs from memory, so may have been built from a small block car?
That seems a bit odd, unless dealer had a low spec SS car sitting unsold in dealership and sold it cheap, with the 427 conversion thrown in?

Fitting discs isn't going to affect its value.
Fitting fuel injection, if one of the modern carb look-a-like systems is OK, as long as you keep the original carb and stuff, should you want to sell it later.

While its your car and your money, I think you should consider selling it as it is rather than ruin it with fitting a LS motor and silly wheels for bigger brakes and all that crap, and just buy something like that already done, as it would be a lot cheaper. If you want a modern pro-touring style '69 Camaro, with modern running gear, then this really wasn't the car to buy. This is a nice period muscle car to be enjoyed as it pretty much is, for a period driving experience....but that's just my opinion.

Edited by aeropilot on Monday 24th July 10:54

I think you're absolutely right (and it has front discs, I just thought bigger ones would be useful). I want it looking as is, i.e. classic, but more useable. I don't want the wheels bigger than 15in as a high sidewall is both great for ride, and avoids kerbing the wheels.

Just spoke to Hot Rod Technologies, not far from me, and they build loads of cars, including modernised classics, rather than Pro Touring. They have lots of London customers, so my requests sounded pretty standard.

So EFi for easy starting in all weathers, auto box or lighter clutch, Aircon, losing the slapper bars and a slight lift on the rear (it sits a touch low to my eyes, maybe an inch), engine bay heat management are my priorities. It doesn't have to handle or be overbraked as it's for cruising around with kids in, not racing.

I suspect that will get it where I want it to be in terms of driveability. Next will be an interior retrim in brown leather to set off the green paint. but that will not be a priority.

Also spoke to the lovely man at RPM, who built it. It is indeed a clone, so has no intrinsically high value as original. He's retiring, else he would have loved to have had it back for servicing.

[aeropilot]

Harry Flashman said:

Just spoke to Hot Rod Technologies, not far from me, and they build loads of cars, including modernised classics, rather than Pro Touring. They have lots of London customers, so my requests sounded pretty standard.

I used to live just a few miles from them, when I lived in London, and despite knowing people in the area who've been into yanks for decades, and knowing other people with workshops that are involved, and yet I know nothing about the people at Hot Rod Technologies, or indeed know of anyone else who knows anything about them either, or seen any cars they built or worked on......they seem to be appeared from nowhere some years ago...and are somewhat invisible on the hot rod scene.

[roscobbc]

Looking at the auctioneers photo's I see the inlet manifold is a single plane Torker 2. This manifold is only .250" or so higher than the oem snowflake inlet and the only one that will fit under the stock hood of a BBC Vette and.....I'm guessing also the only one that will fit a Camaro with cowl induction. Might also limit your plans using a higher rise MPI inlet manifold based Edelbrock ProFlo or Holley set up.......over to one of the Hollet carb sized throttle body units like FiTech or similar. There are plenty of threads around showing people using Lizard Skin or Reflectix allumised heat (and sound) insulation.

[Harry Flashman]

aeropilot said:

Harry Flashman said:

Just spoke to Hot Rod Technologies, not far from me, and they build loads of cars, including modernised classics, rather than Pro Touring. They have lots of London customers, so my requests sounded pretty standard.

I used to live just a few miles from them, when I lived in London, and despite knowing people in the area who've been into yanks for decades, and knowing other people with workshops that are involved, and yet I know nothing about the people at Hot Rod Technologies, or indeed know of anyone else who knows anything about them either, or seen any cars they built or worked on......they seem to be appeared from nowhere some years ago...and are somewhat invisible on the hot rod scene.

Well, I shall be speaking to their other clients, and getting a couple of other quotes...

[newsatten]

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