Your thoughts on fake watches
Discussion
TiggerBits said:
Jayho said:
That's not the only issue with this thread though is it? It's the OPs insistence constantly on all his threads that the cheaper copies are just as good as the real deal and that his insistence that everyone who purchases the real deal are getting ripped off. Snobbery really goes 2 ways. The value at which he prices things are also very hazy and he doesn't seem to grasp the real costs once you factor in all the intangible factors.
One of my favourite watches I own is a orient ray which I bought to curb a divers itch. Surely that would be the sensible thing to do other than buy a fake?
Art is a different matter though as they are genuinely 1 of a kind and there is zero supply unless getting a reprint.
Rubbish, rubbish rubbish. At no point have I ever said a cheap homage is as good as the real thing, and I never would. Yes, I do believe that people who pay thousands of pounds for a watch are getting ripped off, but I appreciate that it is their choice. My argument has always been about value for money. A watch that is 10 times as good as another, shouldn't cost 100 times as much. One of my favourite watches I own is a orient ray which I bought to curb a divers itch. Surely that would be the sensible thing to do other than buy a fake?
Art is a different matter though as they are genuinely 1 of a kind and there is zero supply unless getting a reprint.
Even if you could (which you can't), laws of diminishing returns always apply and actually, in the current global marketplace, the multiple that the very best is getting over and above the middle market is simply going up
As for 'value for money' (one of your criteria)....well if you think a genuine SS sports rolex that is as close to guaranteed to go up significantly year on year as any more mainstream investment is poorer value than a fake which you'll be lucky to sell for any money whatsoever the moment it's second hand you operate very different criteria to me. My Rolexes have been just about the best value purchases I have ever made. I sold my last one for double what I paid (which was full retail) after just 7 yrs, having worn it almost every day.
Of course all this ignores the fact we are comparing legal activity with illegal activity.
lostkiwi said:
jonby said:
Of course all this ignores the fact we are comparing legal activity with illegal activity.
There is nothing illegal under UK law about buying or owning a fake watch. This will go on forever.
'Fake' watches are a bit s
t - I think everyone can agree with that.
Owning a Rolex, Patek, Breguet, JLC.... is a bit of a private pleasure. You know where it's been made, who made it, how it was made - that's the pleasure of owning it, a little piece of art under your shirt sleeve. Something stamped out in a factory in China for £5 is not an item to bring pleasure and an embarrassment if someone sees it.
I suspect there are people who buy certain watch brands to show off how successful they are, rather than for the quality of what they're buying. Same with cars, art and numerous other things. 'Nouveau' and 'arriviste' used to describe such sorts.
'Fake' watches are a bit s
t - I think everyone can agree with that.Owning a Rolex, Patek, Breguet, JLC.... is a bit of a private pleasure. You know where it's been made, who made it, how it was made - that's the pleasure of owning it, a little piece of art under your shirt sleeve. Something stamped out in a factory in China for £5 is not an item to bring pleasure and an embarrassment if someone sees it.
I suspect there are people who buy certain watch brands to show off how successful they are, rather than for the quality of what they're buying. Same with cars, art and numerous other things. 'Nouveau' and 'arriviste' used to describe such sorts.
lostkiwi said:
jonby said:
Of course all this ignores the fact we are comparing legal activity with illegal activity.
There is nothing illegal under UK law about buying or owning a fake watch. TiggerBits said:
Yes, I do believe that people who pay thousands of pounds for a watch are getting ripped off, but I appreciate that it is their choice. My argument has always been about value for money. A watch that is 10 times as good as another, shouldn't cost 100 times as much.
It's the law of diminishing returns and is true for virtually anything. Cars, hi-fi, watches, even a decent meal out - etc. etc. etc.And value for money is a fairly meaningless measure since value is entirely subjective. (At least) one of my cars would - by your definition - be a complete rip off, since it's worth many times the £8k sheds you mentioned you would buy in preference to a Rolex. On the other hand, it literally brings a smile to my face when I get a clear run on a twisty road, and that is - frankly - priceless. Not to mention the fact that it's gone up while an £8k s
t box would depreciate like a stone. Which - incidentally - is also the case with my Rolex.Zoon said:
NDA said:
I suspect there are people who buy certain watch brands to show off how successful they are
I would wager that anybody buying a Rolex or similar does so for that exact reason.I don't think this is true at all.
Perhaps it is the case that those who cannot afford a Rolex 'or similar' might think that?
TiggerBits said:
Yes, you have to ask yourself, if someone can produce a replica for £500 that is so close to the original that cost £20,000, when nobody but the original manufacturer can tell the difference, why does the original cost 40 times as much ?
Ok you never said just as good... But so you do say just as close to the real thing which implies that it's only a fraction away of the real deal and can fool even the best of watch enthusiasts.NDA said:
Owning a Rolex, Patek, Breguet, JLC.... is a bit of a private pleasure. You know where it's been made, who made it, how it was made - that's the pleasure of owning it, a little piece of art under your shirt sleeve. Something stamped out in a factory in China for £5 is not an item to bring pleasure and an embarrassment if someone sees it.
I don't think your second statement can reasonably apply to Rolex. They make over a million watches a year. I can understand someone feeling that way with some of the more 'boutique' brands who do actually hand make each watch.TiggerBits said:
I do believe that people who pay thousands of pounds for a watch are getting ripped off, but I appreciate that it is their choice. My argument has always been about value for money. A watch that is 10 times as good as another, shouldn't cost 100 times as much.
In that case, why pay £100-200 on a Parnis when a £5 Casio will be more reliable over a longer period of time? In your opinion, a Panerai might be 10 times better than a Parnis, yet cost 100 times more. However inside the Panerai beats an in-house movement, which isn't cheap to design, research, develop and manufacturer. I remember reading somewhere that the Nomos Glashutte Club, which retails for around £1000, has an in-house movement that cost Nomos £7,000,000 to produce! Lest we forget the costs of having an AD/servicing network, marketing, staffing costs (considerably more in Switzerland) etc.
I personally think some of the watches that run into six figures are somewhat excessive. However at such price points, watches almost need to be viewed as artwork. However there is a distinct difference in build quality, finishing and in-house components that comes with a watch that costs multiple thousands - something you just don't get at the £100 - £500 mark. It's up to you whether you think it's worth it. The same applies to most things though; cars, holidays, houses etc.
TiggerBits said:
Rubbish, rubbish rubbish. At no point have I ever said a cheap homage is as good as the real thing, and I never would. Yes, I do believe that people who pay thousands of pounds for a watch are getting ripped off, but I appreciate that it is their choice. My argument has always been about value for money. A watch that is 10 times as good as another, shouldn't cost 100 times as much.
Oh and you also seem to again forget the fact that the cost of building a watch isn't just the watchmaker and raw materials, there is a huge workforce to pay on top of marketing. I was watching the formula 1 this weekend and Rolex is plastered all over the track. The cost of that is included into the price of the watch. Tag is plastered all over the red bulls, again, it would have cost them millions to have that privilege, which then gets filtered down to the cost of the watch.Here you're also implying that a £50 fake is 1/10th as good as a £5000 premium watch. I've had a few homage type pieces in the past and very quickly got fed up of them and not touched them since. If I do that many times over the cost and "value for money" soon diminishes. If I buy luxury for a bigger initial outlay, I'd probably wear it more and at the end of the day sell for not too much of a hit.
Zoon said:
davek_964 said:
Gross generalisation, and certainly wrong in my case.
If I'm wrong, what was the number one reason you purchased a Rolex?In fact, before the Daytona I always said I wouldn't buy a Rolex since I didn't like the style. But I did like the Daytona, so I bought one.
Most (non watch) people have never heard of Breguet - in fact I'm fairly sure nobody I know has. I absolutely love mine - but if I bought it to impress people and show them how successful I am, then it was a waste of money.
jonby said:
lostkiwi said:
jonby said:
Of course all this ignores the fact we are comparing legal activity with illegal activity.
There is nothing illegal under UK law about buying or owning a fake watch. You could in practice complete the transaction and no one involved would break the law at all, from manufacture to selling to buying to wearing.
We all know how much attention is paid in some countries to IP and copyright.
davek_964 said:
Because I liked it. If I wanted it to 'show' how successful I was, then I would simply wear a fake.
In fact, before the Daytona I always said I wouldn't buy a Rolex since I didn't like the style. But I did like the Daytona, so I bought one.
Most (non watch) people have never heard of Breguet - in fact I'm fairly sure nobody I know has. I absolutely love mine - but if I bought it to impress people and show them how successful I am, then it was a waste of money.
Surely if it was based on style alone there are far cheaper similar watches, if impressing people wasn't top of the agenda.In fact, before the Daytona I always said I wouldn't buy a Rolex since I didn't like the style. But I did like the Daytona, so I bought one.
Most (non watch) people have never heard of Breguet - in fact I'm fairly sure nobody I know has. I absolutely love mine - but if I bought it to impress people and show them how successful I am, then it was a waste of money.
Zoon said:
davek_964 said:
Because I liked it. If I wanted it to 'show' how successful I was, then I would simply wear a fake.
In fact, before the Daytona I always said I wouldn't buy a Rolex since I didn't like the style. But I did like the Daytona, so I bought one.
Most (non watch) people have never heard of Breguet - in fact I'm fairly sure nobody I know has. I absolutely love mine - but if I bought it to impress people and show them how successful I am, then it was a waste of money.
Surely if it was based on style alone there are far cheaper similar watches, if impressing people wasn't top of the agenda.In fact, before the Daytona I always said I wouldn't buy a Rolex since I didn't like the style. But I did like the Daytona, so I bought one.
Most (non watch) people have never heard of Breguet - in fact I'm fairly sure nobody I know has. I absolutely love mine - but if I bought it to impress people and show them how successful I am, then it was a waste of money.
You are welcome to believe what you like, but I really couldn't care less whether people are 'impressed' or not. I liked it, I could afford it, so I bought it.
lostkiwi said:
You're assuming that some part of the activity is illegal in one or more of the countries
You could in practice complete the transaction and no one involved would break the law at all, from manufacture to selling to buying to wearing.
We all know how much attention is paid in some countries to IP and copyright.
You are dancing on the head of a pin with this argument. I've already linked to some of the numerous articles which show the link between counterfeit goods and organised crime. Whilst the situation you are describing is conceivable, it is nuance which doesn't blunt the main point being made.You could in practice complete the transaction and no one involved would break the law at all, from manufacture to selling to buying to wearing.
We all know how much attention is paid in some countries to IP and copyright.
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