Ukrainian Air Force

[IanH755]

NMNeil said:

So it's a different sort of rust to the corrosion they found back in 2018 then?

Yeap, that was aluminium corrosion (not "rust" as such) where the underlying metal airframe wasn't properly re-painted with a Primer undercoat after some holes were drilled through the originally Primed metal, allowing some corrosion around the holes and some dissimilar metal corrosion around fasteners.

The "rust" pictures above are from actual bits of iron mixed into an older version of "stealth paint" to dumb down the techie stuff. Iron is not used in aircraft building and so you don't see brown/orange "rust" on modern aircraft which are mainly aluminium, composites, titanium etc but you may see some brown/orange "streaks" from grease which might be confused with "rust".

Here's a bit of info about how Iron is added to help create "stealth paint" - https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-sci... -

said:

One of the most common RAMs is called iron ball paint, which contains tiny metal-coated spheres suspended in an epoxy-based paint. The spheres are coated with ferrite or carbonyl iron.

[Evanivitch]

NMNeil said:

Evanivitch said:

Do you have any experience of engineering? I'm guessing none.

Limited experience, but I do know what corrosion is, and it has no place on a highly stressed fighter aircraft.

Of course it does. Corrosion is managed by design on servicing on all things, especially those that are exposed to sea water. Surface treatments, maintenance procedures and maintenance schedules are all things that are constantly adjusted throughout the life of a complex system to optimise performance and availability.

But it's okay, you didn't know that.

[havoc]

NMNeil said:

The current Russian fighter, the SU-57 is meant to replace the Mig-29, so you can only assume that it's faster, longer range and more weapons.
And in the works is the new Checkmate fighter.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41576/now-we...
And the unmanned Hunter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kuS30vyoqg
One or both may make an appearance on the battlefield, who knows?

If they've not yet, I wouldn't hold my breath...


I suspect they've a mere handful of them and those are being held back to defend Moscow in case the dreaded NATO Nazis invade...

[FourWheelDrift]

Su-57 uses the same smokey old engines the Su-27 & Su-35 uses. So I suspect heat seeking Stinger missiles that have been knocking Su-27s out of the sky would have the same impact on the Su-57.

[Flooble]

That's an interesting point. Could Putin denude the country of defences in order to pour resources into Ukraine? Does he need to (I read an analysis somewhere that things are a lot more precarious for the Ukrainians than it appears).

I vaguely recall the line from Dowding on September 15th 1940, when asked where are the reserves - there aren't any.

Is that likely to happen here? I don't see Japan or Finland deciding to take a chunk of territory off Russia while the usual defenders have popped out for a bit. But ... ?

[havoc]

Flooble said:

Is that likely to happen here?

No.

From what I've read they deployed ~20% of their ground forces around Ukraine before launching the attack, leaving 80% elsewhere - Eastern front deterring* any Chinese ambitions, Moscow, in maintenance and in other reserves.

So even if they throw another 10% at Ukraine, and keep e.g. 25% for Eastern defence, that means they've still got 45% in their pocket (assuming any of that remaining 45% even work...)



* Given how they've been seen to operate these last two weeks, I bet there are some Chinese commanders are itching to have a go...

[hidetheelephants]

Flooble said:

That's an interesting point. Could Putin denude the country of defences in order to pour resources into Ukraine? Does he need to (I read an analysis somewhere that things are a lot more precarious for the Ukrainians than it appears).

I vaguely recall the line from Dowding on September 15th 1940, when asked where are the reserves - there aren't any.

At most RAF 11 Group may have used up its reserves as it was responsible for air defence in the south east and bore the brunt of the attack including bombed airfields; there were plenty of reserves in 10,12 and 13 Groups elsewhere in the UK. Because of Dowding's organisation, the efforts of the minister of aircraft production, The Few(TM), Rosie the Riveter and the Chain Home radar system it went pretty well and the Luftwaffe never really threatened the RAF's ability to defend against air attack.

[PD9]

Things may very soon be looking up for the UAF.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/ukraine-war-poland-...

Interesting part of this is where they launch their sorties from. Wonder if out and return to Ramstein AB following each mission or somewhere in Western Ukraine?

[Clivey]

Evanivitch said:

And finally, a good threat detection system would differentiate between an aircraft radar and a missile's radar (which may or not may-not be active during launch, as it may use the launch aircraft to vector before enabling its own radar at closer ranges).

As I understand it, the radar of most Active Radar Homing ("Fox 3") missiles would only be active off the rail if they're fired at a target at close range. Usually they either vector using the launch aircraft's radar until they get within about 10 miles of the target before going active and switching on their own radar (called going "pitbull") or, if the launch aircraft goes cold (turns away from the target), the missile either goes pitbull from that point or flies to a pre-computed intercept point first.

Also, AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radars like those on most modern NATO jets spread their emissions over a wide range of frequencies, as well as hopping frequencies, to lessen their chances of being detected by Radar Warning Receivers. That is unless you lock a target up in STT (Single Target Track) mode, which will be picked-up by the target's RWR.

Even in the case of an older jet like the F-15C Eagle, it could lock a target in TWS (Track Whilst Scan) mode, which doesn't focus the radar's energy the same way (and allows you to lock and fire on multiple targets at once). From the target's point of view, you wouldn't know you'd been locked on to until the missile coming at you went pitbull...and good luck with that!

Does anyone know if any of the Russian or Ukrainian aircraft are still using the SPO-15 Beryoza RWR? I can imagine that being almost useless in a complicated electronic environment.

[saaby93]

Isnt it going to get confusing if both sides are using the same plane?
Better to assume that any plane is Russian and shoot it down?

[hidetheelephants]

PD9 said:

Things may very soon be looking up for the UAF.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/ukraine-war-poland-...

Interesting part of this is where they launch their sorties from. Wonder if out and return to Ramstein AB following each mission or somewhere in Western Ukraine?

UAF are operating from their airfields in Ukraine, there's no prospect of operating from airfields in a NATO member state for obvious reasons.

[FourWheelDrift]

Correct, it has to be arms deals only just like during any war.

[NMNeil]

FourWheelDrift said:

Su-57 uses the same smokey old engines the Su-27 & Su-35 uses. So I suspect heat seeking Stinger missiles that have been knocking Su-27s out of the sky would have the same impact on the Su-57.

The Su-57 has the 101KS-O DIRCM (Directed Infrared Counter Measures).
"DIRCM consists of two laser emitting turrets, with one placed behind the cockpit on the dorsal side, and the other beneath the cockpit on the ventral side. The function of the system is relatively straight forwards. When an IR missile is spotted, the lasers quickly aim for the missiles seeker system, blinding it and preventing it from being able to guide to the targeted aircraft."
It's just a continuation of the cat and mouse game that's been going on for centuries. Build a weapon and use it until you opponent can defeat it, then build a new one that they can't.
Rinse and repeat.

[Dr Jekyll]

saaby93 said:

Isnt it going to get confusing if both sides are using the same plane?
Better to assume that any plane is Russian and shoot it down?

The Ukrainians already operate MiG29s, that's why additional ones would be useful.

[aeropilot]

saaby93 said:

Isnt it going to get confusing if both sides are using the same plane?
Better to assume that any plane is Russian and shoot it down?

Don't think the Russian's have any MiG-29's in service anymore, although they and the Ukrainians both have been using Su-27's, but we don't if the Ukrainians have any left, as they have certainly lost a number of them in combat already.

Anyway, it seems to still be a moot point as it appears the Americans have rejected the Polish proposal.

It would seem to be the best way to get them to Ukraine is to road transport them across the border, just like they are doing for everything else, the MiG-29 is quite a small aircraft.
The Ukrainians actually have a runway right on the border with Poland, so close in fact that the runway lights at the western end of the runway are actually across the border in Poland!!

Fly them at 50ft below radar and drop them into that airfield and hand them over once repainted and all Polish markings etc removed.

[AlexIT]

havoc said:

Flooble said:

Is that likely to happen here?

No.

From what I've read they deployed ~20% of their ground forces around Ukraine before launching the attack, leaving 80% elsewhere - Eastern front deterring* any Chinese ambitions, Moscow, in maintenance and in other reserves.

So even if they throw another 10% at Ukraine, and keep e.g. 25% for Eastern defence, that means they've still got 45% in their pocket (assuming any of that remaining 45% even work...)



* Given how they've been seen to operate these last two weeks, I bet there are some Chinese commanders are itching to have a go...

Replace with: "at the government who will buy Russia for peanuts"

Apparently there are already talks taking place of Chinese companies acquiring substantial shares of Rosneft and Gazprom (at current stock prices?)

[Eric Mc]

hidetheelephants said:

Flooble said:

That's an interesting point. Could Putin denude the country of defences in order to pour resources into Ukraine? Does he need to (I read an analysis somewhere that things are a lot more precarious for the Ukrainians than it appears).

I vaguely recall the line from Dowding on September 15th 1940, when asked where are the reserves - there aren't any.

At most RAF 11 Group may have used up its reserves as it was responsible for air defence in the south east and bore the brunt of the attack including bombed airfields; there were plenty of reserves in 10,12 and 13 Groups elsewhere in the UK. Because of Dowding's organisation, the efforts of the minister of aircraft production, The Few(TM), Rosie the Riveter and the Chain Home radar system it went pretty well and the Luftwaffe never really threatened the RAF's ability to defend against air attack.

It wasn't Dowding who said "There are none" when asked by Churchill about reserves. It was Keith Park, head of 11 Group.

[Siko]

NMNeil said:

The Su-57 has the 101KS-O DIRCM (Directed Infrared Counter Measures).
"DIRCM consists of two laser emitting turrets, with one placed behind the cockpit on the dorsal side, and the other beneath the cockpit on the ventral side. The function of the system is relatively straight forwards. When an IR missile is spotted, the lasers quickly aim for the missiles seeker system, blinding it and preventing it from being able to guide to the targeted aircraft."
It's just a continuation of the cat and mouse game that's been going on for centuries. Build a weapon and use it until you opponent can defeat it, then build a new one that they can't.
Rinse and repeat.

DIRCM is a good bit of kit (well the NATO variant) obviously this will be a Russian copy. Essentially it's just an IR Jammer and the laser pulses heat energy at a missile seeker head to confuse it (not burn it out like people on t'internet think). However it's only as good as the software programme written for it and some systems are notoriously hard to defeat with IR Jammers....interestingly Stinger is one of them Even with access to the latest Missile seeker heads, it is still incredibly tricky to get a working and effective programme to counter them, which is why a mix of flares/IR Jammers is most effective.

I do have some experience of this as DIRCM (and flares) saved my life in Iraq from a Heat-seeking missile (almost certainly an SA14) back in 2006. Sadly my Boss at the time was killed a few months later when a Lynx was shotdown by a heat-seeking missile from the same spot. His Lynx wasn't equipped with DIRCM, unfortunately.

[MB140]

saaby93 said:

Isnt it going to get confusing if both sides are using the same plane?
Better to assume that any plane is Russian and shoot it down?

Coming from someone who has worked on aircraft that does radar detection.

Every single radar in the world has a slight signature in its radar emissions. We can tell exactly which aircraft tail number it is (obviously if they move an entire radar package from one aircraft to another then we would get the tail number wrong but if it’s come out of say one usaf f15 and fitted to another we could still tell it was an f15 and therefore usaf.

Likewise if they take a radar out of one Russian jet and fit it to another then it’s still Russian.

Slight problems can occur on if they only change individual parts of the radar not a whole pack. But it doesn’t take long to figure it out.

A Ukraine mig and a Russian mig radar signature will be different so long as we have it on file. Why do you think the Rivet Joint is constantly over there. So we have the latest radar data.

Edited by MB140 on Wednesday 9th March 09:05

[Flooble]

That's the sort of insight that makes this forum worthwhile - thank you.