Crash at Amsterdam airport....
Discussion
Stick pushers were introduced after a series of earlier deep stall accidents to T-Tail aircraft. The prototype BAC 1-11 was lost on Salisbury Plain in these circumstances (killing well known test pilot Mike Lithgow and his crew) and another Trident (G-ARPY) was lost in a test flight.
The crazy thing was that, in the Staines Trident crash, the stick shaker and pusher alarms activated - but someone on the flightdeck deliberately de-activated the system. No one know why.
The crazy thing was that, in the Staines Trident crash, the stick shaker and pusher alarms activated - but someone on the flightdeck deliberately de-activated the system. No one know why.
s3fella said:
Just heard from ex colleague whos at Eurocontrol.
Speculation that the third person on the flightdeck was not a pilot...possibly crew, but not a pilot..?
Christ I hope they were not messing about when this happened.
Just seen on Sky News that there were indeed only 2 pilots in the cockpit, the third was not a pilot..Speculation that the third person on the flightdeck was not a pilot...possibly crew, but not a pilot..?
Christ I hope they were not messing about when this happened.
It would not be normal for a steward or Stewardess to be on the flightdeck for landing under current rules an laws, would it?
Not exactly knowledgeable about aviation, but my brother-in-law-to-be is a pilot in Edinburgh and I take a keen interest due to my fear!
Speaking to him last night, he agreed with the stall theory but also suggested the possibility of wind shear (I think a survivor was quoted as saying that there was what felt like severe turbulence just before the crash)?
There is also a strong rumour that the pilots were probably killed instantly by the front undercarriage penetrating the cockpit.
RIP to all lost.
Speaking to him last night, he agreed with the stall theory but also suggested the possibility of wind shear (I think a survivor was quoted as saying that there was what felt like severe turbulence just before the crash)?
There is also a strong rumour that the pilots were probably killed instantly by the front undercarriage penetrating the cockpit.
RIP to all lost.
Legend83 said:
Not exactly knowledgeable about aviation, but my brother-in-law-to-be is a pilot in Edinburgh and I take a keen interest due to my fear!
Speaking to him last night, he agreed with the stall theory but also suggested the possibility of wind shear (I think a survivor was quoted as saying that there was what felt like severe turbulence just before the crash)?
There is also a strong rumour that the pilots were probably killed instantly by the front undercarriage penetrating the cockpit.
RIP to all lost.
Truly awful.Speaking to him last night, he agreed with the stall theory but also suggested the possibility of wind shear (I think a survivor was quoted as saying that there was what felt like severe turbulence just before the crash)?
There is also a strong rumour that the pilots were probably killed instantly by the front undercarriage penetrating the cockpit.
RIP to all lost.
When I heard the stories of turbulence before the crash, I assumed it was the shuddering that often happens at the verge of a stall rather than atmospheric conditions. The pictures on TV and on the Net seemed to indicate a calm, rather murky day. Wind shear is normally associated with thunderstorms.
Eric Mc said:
Legend83 said:
Not exactly knowledgeable about aviation, but my brother-in-law-to-be is a pilot in Edinburgh and I take a keen interest due to my fear!
Speaking to him last night, he agreed with the stall theory but also suggested the possibility of wind shear (I think a survivor was quoted as saying that there was what felt like severe turbulence just before the crash)?
There is also a strong rumour that the pilots were probably killed instantly by the front undercarriage penetrating the cockpit.
RIP to all lost.
Truly awful.Speaking to him last night, he agreed with the stall theory but also suggested the possibility of wind shear (I think a survivor was quoted as saying that there was what felt like severe turbulence just before the crash)?
There is also a strong rumour that the pilots were probably killed instantly by the front undercarriage penetrating the cockpit.
RIP to all lost.
When I heard the stories of turbulence before the crash, I assumed it was the shuddering that often happens at the verge of a stall rather than atmospheric conditions. The pictures on TV and on the Net seemed to indicate a calm, rather murky day. Wind shear is normally associated with thunderstorms.
Apparenty the weather was:-
Metar 250955z 21010kt 4500 Br Bkn007 Ovc008 05/04 Q1027 Tempo 2500
Taf 250522z 2506/2612 22008kt 6000 Br Few012 Bkn016 Becmg
2508/2511 Sct004 Bkn006 Tempo 2508/2521 4000 Br -dz Prob30
Tempo 2508/2514 1200 -dzra Sct002 Bkn003 Becmg 2511/2514
24012kt Becmg 2523/2602 27015kt Becmg 2602/2605 9999 Nsw
Few020 Becmg 2608/2611 28017g28kt
So 10knot wind from 210 degrees (21010kt), misty (Br) and 5 degrees C 05/04
nothing exceptional, no storms and no gusty conditions until today as far as I can translate this.
Thanks to pprune for the info.
rob
Metar 250955z 21010kt 4500 Br Bkn007 Ovc008 05/04 Q1027 Tempo 2500
Taf 250522z 2506/2612 22008kt 6000 Br Few012 Bkn016 Becmg
2508/2511 Sct004 Bkn006 Tempo 2508/2521 4000 Br -dz Prob30
Tempo 2508/2514 1200 -dzra Sct002 Bkn003 Becmg 2511/2514
24012kt Becmg 2523/2602 27015kt Becmg 2602/2605 9999 Nsw
Few020 Becmg 2608/2611 28017g28kt
So 10knot wind from 210 degrees (21010kt), misty (Br) and 5 degrees C 05/04
nothing exceptional, no storms and no gusty conditions until today as far as I can translate this.
Thanks to pprune for the info.
rob
Eric Mc said:
Legend83 said:
Not exactly knowledgeable about aviation, but my brother-in-law-to-be is a pilot in Edinburgh and I take a keen interest due to my fear!
Speaking to him last night, he agreed with the stall theory but also suggested the possibility of wind shear (I think a survivor was quoted as saying that there was what felt like severe turbulence just before the crash)?
There is also a strong rumour that the pilots were probably killed instantly by the front undercarriage penetrating the cockpit.
RIP to all lost.
Truly awful.Speaking to him last night, he agreed with the stall theory but also suggested the possibility of wind shear (I think a survivor was quoted as saying that there was what felt like severe turbulence just before the crash)?
There is also a strong rumour that the pilots were probably killed instantly by the front undercarriage penetrating the cockpit.
RIP to all lost.
When I heard the stories of turbulence before the crash, I assumed it was the shuddering that often happens at the verge of a stall rather than atmospheric conditions. The pictures on TV and on the Net seemed to indicate a calm, rather murky day. Wind shear is normally associated with thunderstorms.
magpie215 said:
Eric Mc said:
Legend83 said:
Not exactly knowledgeable about aviation, but my brother-in-law-to-be is a pilot in Edinburgh and I take a keen interest due to my fear!
Speaking to him last night, he agreed with the stall theory but also suggested the possibility of wind shear (I think a survivor was quoted as saying that there was what felt like severe turbulence just before the crash)?
There is also a strong rumour that the pilots were probably killed instantly by the front undercarriage penetrating the cockpit.
RIP to all lost.
Truly awful.Speaking to him last night, he agreed with the stall theory but also suggested the possibility of wind shear (I think a survivor was quoted as saying that there was what felt like severe turbulence just before the crash)?
There is also a strong rumour that the pilots were probably killed instantly by the front undercarriage penetrating the cockpit.
RIP to all lost.
When I heard the stories of turbulence before the crash, I assumed it was the shuddering that often happens at the verge of a stall rather than atmospheric conditions. The pictures on TV and on the Net seemed to indicate a calm, rather murky day. Wind shear is normally associated with thunderstorms.
robbin'b said:
Thanks for the clarification of what 'student pilot' meant - of course there has to be a first time that you land with passengers but the presence of a third person on the flight deck I would have expected to make the approach safer as there are more eyes watching what is going on.
The 'multiple factors' is what I was alluding to when I said 'holes in the cheese', as usual at this point there's a lot of speculation with few facts: my guess is fuel or fuelling.
At least it's not one of 'my' FADECs this time, unlike the LHR incident!
Rob
Ooo...ehhup Rob, who do you work for and which site?The 'multiple factors' is what I was alluding to when I said 'holes in the cheese', as usual at this point there's a lot of speculation with few facts: my guess is fuel or fuelling.
At least it's not one of 'my' FADECs this time, unlike the LHR incident!
Rob
s3fella said:
s3fella said:
Just heard from ex colleague whos at Eurocontrol.
Speculation that the third person on the flightdeck was not a pilot...possibly crew, but not a pilot..?
Christ I hope they were not messing about when this happened.
Just seen on Sky News that there were indeed only 2 pilots in the cockpit, the third was not a pilot..Speculation that the third person on the flightdeck was not a pilot...possibly crew, but not a pilot..?
Christ I hope they were not messing about when this happened.
It would not be normal for a steward or Stewardess to be on the flightdeck for landing under current rules an laws, would it?
Legend83 said:
There is also a strong rumour that the pilots were probably killed instantly by the front undercarriage penetrating the cockpit.
RIP to all lost.
I think that's unnecessarily gruesome and not particularly helpful or accurate. a quick image search demonstrates that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ryanair2.jpg At times like this all the armchair experts come out of the woodwork offering their 'expert' opinions which only serve to cloud the facts. There are lots of possible reasons why the plane crashed but none of us are in posession of the first hand evidence so I'll be waiting for the official report. speculating gives you something to do in the meantime but ultimately adds little to our understanding.RIP to all lost.
squirrel2007 said:
There are lots of possible reasons why the plane crashed but none of us are in posession of the first hand evidence so I'll be waiting for the official report. speculating gives you something to do in the meantime but ultimately adds little to our understanding.
Oh you of little faith in PH's ability to analyse and conclude the situation in 8 pages or less 
Whilst I am in general agreement with the "wait until the official report comes out" camp, learned speculation is not a problem for me. Obviously, pointing fingers at individuals and trying to lay "blame" is no use to anyone. But having a general discussion about possible causes is still interesting. No dount the actual crash investigators will be doing exactly the same - only they will have access to the evidence to help them eliminate the unlikely causes.
Vipers said:
squirrel2007 said:
There are lots of possible reasons why the plane crashed but none of us are in posession of the first hand evidence so I'll be waiting for the official report. speculating gives you something to do in the meantime but ultimately adds little to our understanding.
Oh you of little faith in PH's ability to analyse and conclude the situation in 8 pages or less You're right. maybe i should have waited until the tenth page!!
DJC,
I was at Goodrich, York Road at the time, am now at a suppliers site - still FADECing but now its for Derby, AEC Joint-Venture. Been doing engine controls since before-digital days!
(I have a thin-film from a Tornado MECU on my desk at the moment, trying to convince the youngsters here there was life before microchips!)
Rob
I was at Goodrich, York Road at the time, am now at a suppliers site - still FADECing but now its for Derby, AEC Joint-Venture. Been doing engine controls since before-digital days!
(I have a thin-film from a Tornado MECU on my desk at the moment, trying to convince the youngsters here there was life before microchips!)
Rob
squirrel2007 said:
Legend83 said:
There is also a strong rumour that the pilots were probably killed instantly by the front undercarriage penetrating the cockpit.
RIP to all lost.
I think that's unnecessarily gruesome and not particularly helpful or accurate. RIP to all lost.
I think my comment was a reasonable one given that people will not only wish to understand how the aircraft crashed but also the ultimate cause of the deaths. Only understanding this can anyone go forward and try to work out ways of preventing it in the future.
I was not trying to be sensationalist if that is what you thought.
HTH.
P.S. There is more to the undercarriage than the wheel and it's attachment. It would have had a severe impact on the cockpit flooring.
Edited by Legend83 on Thursday 26th February 13:50
Edited by Legend83 on Thursday 26th February 14:00
robbin'b said:
DJC,
I was at Goodrich, York Road at the time, am now at a suppliers site - still FADECing but now its for Derby, AEC Joint-Venture. Been doing engine controls since before-digital days!
(I have a thin-film from a Tornado MECU on my desk at the moment, trying to convince the youngsters here there was life before microchips!)
Rob
Thought so Rob. I was at Goodrich, York Road at the time, am now at a suppliers site - still FADECing but now its for Derby, AEC Joint-Venture. Been doing engine controls since before-digital days!
(I have a thin-film from a Tornado MECU on my desk at the moment, trying to convince the youngsters here there was life before microchips!)
Rob
Who do you want me to say hello to for you?
Im up at Derby on Monday if you are around.Ph is a strange place. Ive had muckers from Uni pop up on here (Hi Dan), muckers from Messybeast (several) and now AEC folk.
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