How to fix the Southern Rail dispute?

[loafer123]

Watch this demonstration of the Tesla self driving car;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3DbrYx-SN4

It is hard to see why trains would be complicated...

[Robertj21a]

legzr1 said:

To be fair, almost all are running 'ok' and it only seems to be SR with real core issues.
Naturally there is the odd issue and staff grumbles at most places (I know VTEC drivers who aren't keen on the style of operation and really miss East Coast with similar comments coming from the west side too.)

The DB take-over of Northern (I think they're by far the biggest operator in terms of drivers and guards with very little DOO operation) seems to have happened smoothly although the less I say about DB the better...

TPE are about to expand and have just renewed the franchise - drivers and guards there were a little fed up with the way things were going but morale seems to be on the up.

I'm no expert on these things but we drivers get around a fair bit and listen to the moaning - most of it has merit , all of it makes you feel better

Given how precise you expect everyone else to be, why do you refer to Northern as DB ?. I thought it was Arriva (not the parent) ?

[legzr1]

Robertj21a said:

Given how precise you expect everyone else to be, why do you refer to Northern as DB ?. I thought it was Arriva (not the parent) ?

What a strange post.
There's a difference between precise and posting things that just aren't true.

Who owns Arriva, who controls Arriva and who has a very hands-on approach to operating Arriva?

I'll give you a clue - they're nearer to Berlin than Sunderland...


However, they seem to handle franchising a lot better than freight so fingers crossed eh?

[legzr1]

loafer123 said:

Watch this demonstration of the Tesla self driving car;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3DbrYx-SN4

It is hard to see why trains would be complicated...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/15/business/fatal-tesla-crash-in-china-involved-autopilot-government-tv-says.html?_r=0

Luckyily there wasn't 800 commuters on their way to work in the back seat...

[jamoor]

legzr1 said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/15/business/fatal-t...

Luckyily there wasn't 800 commuters on their way to work in the back seat...

Well surely a self driving train is inherently easier to create than a self driving car surely?

[legzr1]

jamoor said:

Well surely a self driving train is inherently easier to create than a self driving car surely?

How do you come to that conclusion?

If you have the political will, the time and the massive budget you could create a lovely little closed system running at 25 mph covering a few miles.
Hell, you could call it a light railway if you wanted.

As mentioned earlier, expand and extend that to the whole network with trains travelling at 35mph to 125 mph on the same lines a few signals apart, add in the occasional 2500t freight trundling along at 60mph then add a sprinkling of some of the most dangerous goods ever to be transported and run it on lines using ERTMS all the way to absolute block with semaphore signalling where spare parts are only available from India first introduced over 100 years ago.

Then employ someone qualified to drive to sit there in case it all goes wrong.


What could possibly go wrong?
How could it be so expensive?
Why would it take decades to get anywhere near starting?

[jamoor]

legzr1 said:

How do you come to that conclusion?

If you have the political will, the time and the massive budget you could create a lovely little closed system running at 25 mph covering a few miles.
Hell, you could call it a light railway if you wanted.

As mentioned earlier, expand and extend that to the whole network with trains travelling at 35mph to 125 mph on the same lines a few signals apart, add in the occasional 2500t freight trundling along at 60mph then add a sprinkling of some of the most dangerous goods ever to be transported and run it on lines using ERTMS all the way to absolute block with semaphore signalling where spare parts are only available from India first introduced over 100 years ago.

Then employ someone qualified to drive to sit there in case it all goes wrong.


What could possibly go wrong?
How could it be so expensive?
Why would it take decades to get anywhere near starting?

Well they seem to go back and forward on the exact same route day in day out. Whereas a car can go anywhere?
I'm sure those self driving cars have very similar problems too, trucks, people, traffic lights.

A 2500t train doesn't come out of nowhere by surprise surely?

[legzr1]

jamoor said:

Well they seem to go back and forward on the exact same route day in day out. Whereas a car can go anywhere?
I'm sure those self driving cars have very similar problems too, trucks, people, traffic lights.

A 2500t train doesn't come out of nowhere by surprise surely?

Yes, you're right - let's have them forthwith.

Let's make them levitating monorails while we're at it using cold fusion and wave/particle duality.

But no guards please.

[Robertj21a]

legzr1 said:

What a strange post.
There's a difference between precise and posting things that just aren't true.

Who owns Arriva, who controls Arriva and who has a very hands-on approach to operating Arriva?

I'll give you a clue - they're nearer to Berlin than Sunderland...


However, they seem to handle franchising a lot better than freight so fingers crossed eh?

Not sure which bit isn't true. You refer to DB as the biggest operator. The operator is Arriva. Few people would refer to Northern as DB.

Not sure why your posts are often sarcastic, but if it keeps you happy......

[legzr1]

Robertj21a said:

Not sure which bit isn't true. You refer to DB as the biggest operator. The operator is Arriva. Few people would refer to Northern as DB.

Not sure why your posts are often sarcastic, but if it keeps you happy......

I referred to Northern being the biggest operator in terms of number of drivers and guards.
Arriva got the franchise.
DB own and operate/control Arriva.

I get sarcastic when people post bks and/or fail to read my posts then attempt to win pedantic points insinuating I haven't posted the truth.

DBC (their freight arm) is in absolute disarray partly the fault of the financial crash and the state of the freight market and partly the fault of questionable management - the same company own and operate quite a few passenger franchises as well as the odd open access operator.
I honestly hope they pull the,selves out of the mire and they manage their passenger operations far better than their freight operations.

If you have any serious and genuine questions I'll answer if I can.

Or you can just not read my posts

[p1stonhead]

legzr1 said:

jamoor said:

Well they seem to go back and forward on the exact same route day in day out. Whereas a car can go anywhere?
I'm sure those self driving cars have very similar problems too, trucks, people, traffic lights.

A 2500t train doesn't come out of nowhere by surprise surely?

Yes, you're right - let's have them forthwith.

Let's make them levitating monorails while we're at it using cold fusion and wave/particle duality.

But no guards please.

In fairness, the DLR does operate well every day. It obviously can work and with a bit of thought could I am sure be scaled up.

Whereas UBER started their driverless car programme yesterday and someone already filmed one running a red in front of a pedestrian.

Cars are much more difficult.

https://www.wired.com/2016/12/ubers-self-driving-c...

[loafer123]

p1stonhead said:

In fairness, the DLR does operate well every day. It obviously can work and with a bit of thought could I am sure be scaled up.

Whereas UBER started their driverless car programme yesterday and someone already filmed one running a red in front of a pedestrian.

Cars are much more difficult.

https://www.wired.com/2016/12/ubers-self-driving-c...

The article demonstrates the point completely. It was being driven by a human when it ran the red light.

[p1stonhead]

loafer123 said:

p1stonhead said:

In fairness, the DLR does operate well every day. It obviously can work and with a bit of thought could I am sure be scaled up.

Whereas UBER started their driverless car programme yesterday and someone already filmed one running a red in front of a pedestrian.

Cars are much more difficult.

https://www.wired.com/2016/12/ubers-self-driving-c...

The article demonstrates the point completely. It was being driven by a human when it ran the red light.

UBER said 'human error' or 'error by someone required to sit behind the wheel'. This could presumably mean the human didnt stop the car from driving itself through the light. Or the human did something else which stopped the car from driving itself correctly. I dont think they have actually said a person was in control of the vehicle at the time....

A very vague way of admitting a mistake without blaming the tech or saying there was an actual human physically driving I think. PR!

Edited by p1stonhead on Friday 16th December 08:58

[jamoor]

p1stonhead said:

UBER said 'human error' or 'error by someone required to sit behind the wheel'. This could presumably mean the human didnt stop the car from driving itself through the light. Or the human did something else which stopped the car from driving itself correctly. I dont think they have actually said a person was in control of the vehicle at the time....

A very vague way of admitting a mistake without blaming the tech or saying there was an actual human physically driving I think. PR!

Edited by p1stonhead on Friday 16th December 08:58

A person watches to make sure the computer is doing it's job just like any self driving car, so it's the persons fault.

We haven't reached a stage where we can blame the computer.

[p1stonhead]

jamoor said:

p1stonhead said:

UBER said 'human error' or 'error by someone required to sit behind the wheel'. This could presumably mean the human didnt stop the car from driving itself through the light. Or the human did something else which stopped the car from driving itself correctly. I dont think they have actually said a person was in control of the vehicle at the time....

A very vague way of admitting a mistake without blaming the tech or saying there was an actual human physically driving I think. PR!

Edited by p1stonhead on Friday 16th December 08:58

A person watches to make sure the computer is doing it's job just like any self driving car, so it's the persons fault.

We haven't reached a stage where we can blame the computer.

No not on the roads. But on the DLR we could if something went wrong. They dont have anyone on board them who are watching things I dont think?

[legzr1]

p1stonhead said:

In fairness, the DLR does operate well every day. It obviously can work and with a bit of thought could I am sure be scaled up./

Yes, a low-speed vanity project operating on a closed system and designed from the ground up to be that way.

Scalability has nothing to do with what would need to happen to get automatic trains running on all lines, all locations and all speeds.

Some on here don't seem to realise the mammoth task it would involve.

For starters, go check out the price of a normal, everyday 9 coach train.
Electric or diesel or combination of both doesn't matter.
Then multiply that by the number of sets needed to replace the current stock.
And that would be a drop in the ocean compared to lineside equipment, tredles, activators, sensors and the maintenance of this equipment.

Nope, a novel idea but really as likely as hover boards and perpetual motion IMHO.

Well, for the next 50 years at least.

And what a waste of money because a certain Party knows they'd be bksed trying to get rid of unionised drivers and staff any other way.

No, allow drivers and guards to do their job and concentrate on filling the void in social care (or a reduction in corporation tax - whatever takes priority this week )

[p1stonhead]

legzr1 said:

p1stonhead said:

In fairness, the DLR does operate well every day. It obviously can work and with a bit of thought could I am sure be scaled up./

Yes, a low-speed vanity project operating on a closed system and designed from the ground up to be that way.

Scalability has nothing to do with what would need to happen to get automatic trains running on all lines, all locations and all speeds.

Some on here don't seem to realise the mammoth task it would involve.

For starters, go check out the price of a normal, everyday 9 coach train.
Electric or diesel or combination of both doesn't matter.
Then multiply that by the number of sets needed to replace the current stock.
And that would be a drop in the ocean compared to lineside equipment, tredles, activators, sensors and the maintenance of this equipment.

Nope, a novel idea but really as likely as hover boards and perpetual motion IMHO.

Well, for the next 50 years at least.

And what a waste of money because a certain Party knows they'd be bksed trying to get rid of unionised drivers and staff any other way.

No, allow drivers and guards to do their job and concentrate on filling the void in social care (or a reduction in corporation tax - whatever takes priority this week )

Dont one man operation trains exist elsewhere in the UK and work just fine? A brief look online suggests its 30% of all British trains?

[gooner1]

legzr1 said:

p1stonhead said:

In fairness, the DLR does operate well every day. It obviously can work and with a bit of thought could I am sure be scaled up./

Yes, a low-speed vanity project operating on a closed system and designed from the ground up to be that way.

Scalability has nothing to do with what would need to happen to get automatic trains running on all lines, all locations and all speeds.

Some on here don't seem to realise the mammoth task it would involve.

For starters, go check out the price of a normal, everyday 9 coach train.
Electric or diesel or combination of both doesn't matter.
Then multiply that by the number of sets needed to replace the current stock.
And that would be a drop in the ocean compared to lineside equipment, tredles, activators, sensors and the maintenance of this equipment.

Nope, a novel idea but really as likely as hover boards and perpetual motion IMHO.

Well, for the next 50 years at least.

And what a waste of money because a certain Party knows they'd be bksed trying to get rid of unionised drivers and staff any other way.

No, allow drivers and guards to do their job and concentrate on filling the void in social care (or a reduction in corporation tax - whatever takes priority this week )

Also, normal running of services and infrastructure/track maintenance needs to be factored in , whilst preparing for whatever form of automation, eventually, arrives.

[legzr1]

p1stonhead said:

Dont one man operation trains exist elsewhere in the UK and work just fine? A brief look online suggests its 30% of all British trains?

Don't confuse the original topic with the automated train thread 'diversion'.

Two totally separate things.

[legzr1]

gooner1 said:

Also, normal running of services and infrastructure/track maintenance needs to be factored in , whilst preparing for whatever form of automation, eventually, arrives.

Yes.

And that's without mentioning degraded working, diversions and out of course running, special stop orders, T3 possessions, floods, 3973 exceptional loads etc, etc,etc.