Windfarms

[Invisible man]

pgtips said:

RobCrezz said:

I dont see whats wrong with Nuclear power.

Some nuclear power is great. Too much nuclear (for a market with limited opportunities to export in the same way France does) can cause problems: the system becomes too inflexible to meet fluctuataions in demand. This is why people talk of electrification of the transport sector: i.e we all drive around in electric cars to avoid us having to turn down nuclear power stations..... Not saying its a good thing but that's the thinking behind it.

Electrification of the Rail network is pushing ahead too with a target figure of so many Km of track to be met each year

[escargot]

Streetrod said:

escargot said:

Ahhh.

I'm involved in the renewable energy industry too. How you finding the market at the moment?

I am busy, I cover all the different kinds of energy production, renewable and not. I just got back from the Netherlands on Monday where I was putting together teams to support Jenbacher Gas engines across Europe. These things will run off anything from LPG to cow poo and are used for stand alone electricity production.

On that note if we have any good Automotive engineers with a solid Petrol or Diesel background on this site who speak either Dutch or Spanish then please email me as I am looking to recruit a number at the moment.

Going back to your original question, various wind projects have been put back in the USA but Europe seems to be OK

Interestingly my mates in BP Alternative Energy are experiencing the opposite. They've pretty much binned their whole UK/EU wind teams in favour of the US market. Some good candidates on the market now.

Me, I own an agency that specifically deals with power recruitment (primarily renewables but we also do a bit with some big players who install / maintain big CCGT plants). So we tend to get a fairly broad section of opinion across the sector.

Personally, I'm pretty excited about the prospects in this country for renewable energy going forward.

[nigelfr]

I've noticed that many people claim that wind energy is not viable because it's not produced when the wind doesn't blow.

I imagine it's a pretty rare event for no wind to be blowing anywhere at all, so as we have an (Inter)national grid system, why is it not possible to transfer electricity from areas where the wind is blowing?

Same with solar energy: build the infrastructure where you've got guaranteed good sunlight, and transfer it to where you haven't.

Ref the costs of "green energy": in the Netherlands it costs the same to the consumer as non-green energy. IIRC correctly, there is no subsidy on it at the moment.

There are some calls for green energy to be subsidised there: they're talking about 300-350 million Euro/year. Which is about 20 Euros/Dutchperson/year. Let's see that must be all of 5p/day.


The Times story mentions that Iberdrola is not investing so much in the UK. Hardly surprising considering the NIMBY attitudes shown by some people, making it difficult to get planning permission. However, IMO, a more important factor is the state of Sterling... does a Spanish company really want to make a long term investment in Euros in the UK, when it's going to get paid back in Sterling?

Meanwhile, in Spain... in April 2008, on a particularly windy day, about 1/3 of Spain's power requirement was raised by wind energy. http://actualidad.terra.es/nacional/articulo/recor...

[esselte]

nigelfr said:

I've noticed that many people claim that wind energy is not viable because it's not produced when the wind doesn't blow.

I imagine it's a pretty rare event for no wind to be blowing anywhere at all, so as we have an (Inter)national grid system, why is it not possible to transfer electricity from areas where the wind is blowing?

So,for example,if we didn't have enough wind in the UK then France could send some of it's wind generated leccy to us? How would France then replace that leccy in it's own grid?

[nigelfr]

esselte said:

nigelfr said:

I've noticed that many people claim that wind energy is not viable because it's not produced when the wind doesn't blow.

I imagine it's a pretty rare event for no wind to be blowing anywhere at all, so as we have an (Inter)national grid system, why is it not possible to transfer electricity from areas where the wind is blowing?

So,for example,if we didn't have enough wind in the UK then France could send some of it's wind generated leccy to us? How would France then replace that leccy in it's own grid?

Over capacity: the UK already imports electricity from France without the lights going out in Paris.

About half the Dutch households have green energy, more than the national Green power stations can supply, so some of their demand is supplied from hydro-stations in Sweden.

[pgtips]

esselte said:

nigelfr said:

I've noticed that many people claim that wind energy is not viable because it's not produced when the wind doesn't blow.

I imagine it's a pretty rare event for no wind to be blowing anywhere at all, so as we have an (Inter)national grid system, why is it not possible to transfer electricity from areas where the wind is blowing?

So,for example,if we didn't have enough wind in the UK then France could send some of it's wind generated leccy to us? How would France then replace that leccy in it's own grid?

There is a maximum import capacity of 2 GW on the French interconnector. This is mostly importing from France anyway: therefore in times when we are short power here due to low wind, we would be unlikely to increase imports from France as they would already be at max exports to us - i.e. at the capacity limit. So interconnection is great,but there are still capacity limits.

[esselte]

nigelfr said:

esselte said:

nigelfr said:

I've noticed that many people claim that wind energy is not viable because it's not produced when the wind doesn't blow.

I imagine it's a pretty rare event for no wind to be blowing anywhere at all, so as we have an (Inter)national grid system, why is it not possible to transfer electricity from areas where the wind is blowing?

So,for example,if we didn't have enough wind in the UK then France could send some of it's wind generated leccy to us? How would France then replace that leccy in it's own grid?

Over capacity: the UK already imports electricity from France without the lights going out in Paris.

About half the Dutch households have green energy, more than the national Green power stations can supply, so some of their demand is supplied from hydro-stations in Sweden.

But you were talking specifically about wind farms...how would France,for example,fill the gap in it's green power that we've just taken from them?

[nigelfr]

Please don't just focus on the international bit of the grid(although the capacity could be increased), it really is highly unlikely that the UK would suddenly be totally wind still.

The UK is at a disadvantage wrt to imports, as the cable has to cross the Channel. Most continental countries have an easier time connecting to their neighbours.

Anyone know where I can get a really long waterproof extension cable cheap?

[nigelfr]

esselte said:

But you were talking specifically about wind farms...how would France,for example,fill the gap in it's green power that we've just taken from them?

Er... I don't get your point. What I'm saying is that it isn't a valid argument to say that cos the wind ain't blowing here, at this very moment, I can't use wind power.

Install sufficient capacity (both generating and transmission) so that if some power stations are off line, there is sufficient redundancy to cope. Job done.

[pgtips]

nigelfr said:

Please don't just focus on the international bit of the grid(although the capacity could be increased), it really is highly unlikely that the UK would suddenly be totally wind still.

The UK is at a disadvantage wrt to imports, as the cable has to cross the Channel. Most continental countries have an easier time connecting to their neighbours.

Anyone know where I can get a really long waterproof extension cable cheap?

There is some reserach (can I use that word here ) I linked to earlier in the thread. Key point here is the correlation between different wind sites. Research reckons very few hours over last 30 years when the wind speed across ALL of the country would be low enough not to generate (note it doesn't look at speeds being too high across of the country to prevent wind generation). Of course we don't and won't have wind across ALL of the UK, and this why the correlation between wind regions is so critical. So - - in answer to the question Nigel - very few hours.

If someone wanted to make a case against wind farms, I'd focus on the costs of generation rather than threat to security of supply.

[esselte]

nigelfr said:

esselte said:

But you were talking specifically about wind farms...how would France,for example,fill the gap in it's green power that we've just taken from them?

Er... I don't get your point. What I'm saying is that it isn't a valid argument to say that cos the wind ain't blowing here, at this very moment, I can't use wind power.

Install sufficient capacity (both generating and transmission) so that if some power stations are off line, there is sufficient redundancy to cope. Job done.

It depends on how much of our demand you want to be produced by wind I suppose....can wind alone provide the base level we need?

[Invisible man]

esselte said:

nigelfr said:

esselte said:

But you were talking specifically about wind farms...how would France,for example,fill the gap in it's green power that we've just taken from them?

Er... I don't get your point. What I'm saying is that it isn't a valid argument to say that cos the wind ain't blowing here, at this very moment, I can't use wind power.

Install sufficient capacity (both generating and transmission) so that if some power stations are off line, there is sufficient redundancy to cope. Job done.

It depends on how much of our demand you want to be produced by wind I suppose....can wind alone provide the base level we need?

Of course....provided we install enough farms

[esselte]

Invisible man said:

esselte said:

nigelfr said:

esselte said:

But you were talking specifically about wind farms...how would France,for example,fill the gap in it's green power that we've just taken from them?

Er... I don't get your point. What I'm saying is that it isn't a valid argument to say that cos the wind ain't blowing here, at this very moment, I can't use wind power.

Install sufficient capacity (both generating and transmission) so that if some power stations are off line, there is sufficient redundancy to cope. Job done.

It depends on how much of our demand you want to be produced by wind I suppose....can wind alone provide the base level we need?

Of course....provided we install enough farms

And how many would that be....?

[Busa_Rush]

nigelfr said:

About half the Dutch households have green energy, more than the national Green power stations can supply, so some of their demand is supplied from hydro-stations in Sweden.

Have you been to The Netherlands ? It's flat and the wind blows all the time. It's a shockingly windy place, especially in the north. Nothing like the UK. No comparison.

[carbonjunkie]

Lordbenny said:

Streetrod said:

Nuclear is the future

I though nuclear fusion or fision or whatever it is was going to solve the worlds energy problems within the next 50 years or that's what I was lead to believe after watching that Horizon programme the other day. Something to do with atoms and bringing 2 negative particles together using lazers and stuff! I didn't do O level physics!

I watched that, very interesting programme. The key point it brought home to me is that remewables are just pissing in the wind (so to speak). the sheer quantity required is vast if is to meet even a tiny proportion of our needs.

Nuclear fusion it really has to be. cheap, clean, limitless energy. why the hell aren't we pumping billions upon billions into this? It does work, we can make it work and it will solve so many problems we are crazy to ignore it.

[pgtips]

esselte said:

Invisible man said:

esselte said:

nigelfr said:

esselte said:

But you were talking specifically about wind farms...how would France,for example,fill the gap in it's green power that we've just taken from them?

Er... I don't get your point. What I'm saying is that it isn't a valid argument to say that cos the wind ain't blowing here, at this very moment, I can't use wind power.

Install sufficient capacity (both generating and transmission) so that if some power stations are off line, there is sufficient redundancy to cope. Job done.

It depends on how much of our demand you want to be produced by wind I suppose....can wind alone provide the base level we need?

Of course....provided we install enough farms

And how many would that be....?

It's not possible. Transmission constraints alone rule it out (plus the correlation between wind regions also rules it out),

[Invisible man]

esselte said:

Invisible man said:

esselte said:

nigelfr said:

esselte said:

But you were talking specifically about wind farms...how would France,for example,fill the gap in it's green power that we've just taken from them?

Er... I don't get your point. What I'm saying is that it isn't a valid argument to say that cos the wind ain't blowing here, at this very moment, I can't use wind power.

Install sufficient capacity (both generating and transmission) so that if some power stations are off line, there is sufficient redundancy to cope. Job done.

It depends on how much of our demand you want to be produced by wind I suppose....can wind alone provide the base level we need?

Of course....provided we install enough farms

And how many would that be....?

At present, the UK would resemble a hedgehog I imagine.....but with advances in technology and the ability to power share? who knows. I'd sooner we start building nuclear plants, stop subsidising wind farms and invest in research

[nigelfr]

pgtips said:

There is some reserach (can I use that word here ) I linked to earlier in the thread.

Was it this one...

pgtips said:

There is a good paper on it - one for the staticians possibly: http://www.eci.ox.ac.uk/publications/downloads/sin...

I think the way you introduced it may have put some people off looking at it.

[esselte]

Invisible man said:

esselte said:

Invisible man said:

esselte said:

nigelfr said:

esselte said:

But you were talking specifically about wind farms...how would France,for example,fill the gap in it's green power that we've just taken from them?

Er... I don't get your point. What I'm saying is that it isn't a valid argument to say that cos the wind ain't blowing here, at this very moment, I can't use wind power.

Install sufficient capacity (both generating and transmission) so that if some power stations are off line, there is sufficient redundancy to cope. Job done.

It depends on how much of our demand you want to be produced by wind I suppose....can wind alone provide the base level we need?

Of course....provided we install enough farms

And how many would that be....?

At present, the UK would resemble a hedgehog I imagine.....but with advances in technology and the ability to power share? who knows. I'd sooner we start building nuclear plants, stop subsidising wind farms and invest in research

Me too...I just wondered whether wind could do it all (ignoring the windless days of course)...how many we'd need and what the maximum allowed density of turbines is ...simple maths then as to whether it's physically possible..

[pgtips]

nigelfr said:

pgtips said:

There is some reserach (can I use that word here ) I linked to earlier in the thread.

Was it this one...

pgtips said:

There is a good paper on it - one for the staticians possibly: http://www.eci.ox.ac.uk/publications/downloads/sin...

I think the way you introduced it may have put some people off looking at it.

Only put off the faint hearted! It's good stuff though.