Discussion
I think that you can safely assume that if that dubious photo showing a large triangular shaped aircraft were real, that aircraft would not be supersononic, let alone hypersonic. It's completely the wrong shape for such speeds.
Not sure of the date taken, bit if that photo were real, then I would suggest it's a prototype B2 on trials before they decided to modify the trailing edge shape to the "bat wing" style of the production version.
Not sure of the date taken, bit if that photo were real, then I would suggest it's a prototype B2 on trials before they decided to modify the trailing edge shape to the "bat wing" style of the production version.
Whatever it was with the greatest of respect, the observer is still human which also holds me to some theories. There is a mention of a few minutes of observing, which suggests to me it was high so that image seems out of place if indeed it is a true representation. Most planes coming into land at Cardiff over me are overhead for seconds where they turn in to approach, for minutes it would need to be higher. Not a good comparison I know but the higher up ones heading out over the Irish sea or beyond are there for minute but also 30,000 ft.
If it was a top secret plane then unless there was an issue I cannot see it being flown over a part of the sea where it is quite populous and in the day time in those days especially as certain countries had spy trawlers, were the trawlers still operating in 1989? Unless of course there was a fault or issue that could not be avoided. I understand the F111 is a ground attack which may explain why they were with a F117 if indeed it was that but they are faster, are there issues mixing these two? Maybe a test.
I am still for human error but a small percentage on 117 and zero on Aurora. What fuel would it use anyway (hypothetical) and refuelling in easy eye sight.
If it was a top secret plane then unless there was an issue I cannot see it being flown over a part of the sea where it is quite populous and in the day time in those days especially as certain countries had spy trawlers, were the trawlers still operating in 1989? Unless of course there was a fault or issue that could not be avoided. I understand the F111 is a ground attack which may explain why they were with a F117 if indeed it was that but they are faster, are there issues mixing these two? Maybe a test.
I am still for human error but a small percentage on 117 and zero on Aurora. What fuel would it use anyway (hypothetical) and refuelling in easy eye sight.
dvs_dave said:
I think that you can safely assume that if that dubious photo showing a large triangular shaped aircraft were real, that aircraft would not be supersononic, let alone hypersonic. It's completely the wrong shape for such speeds.
Not sure of the date taken, bit if that photo were real, then I would suggest it's a prototype B2 on trials before they decided to modify the trailing edge shape to the "bat wing" style of the production version.
It's not really a 'dubious photo'.Not sure of the date taken, bit if that photo were real, then I would suggest it's a prototype B2 on trials before they decided to modify the trailing edge shape to the "bat wing" style of the production version.
As I outlined in the post that accompanied it, it was never proposed as a genuine photograph in the first place. It's a representation based upon a sketch drawn by Chris Gibson. I couldn't find a copy of his sketch.
Based upon Gibson's background, he either genuinely saw exactly what he sketched, or he made it up for some reason.
Didn't realise it was an artists impression. In which case I'd put money on what he actually saw was a B2 Spirit, which was reportedly brought into service around that time.
Having seen one at an airshow they look amazingly otherworldly and could easily be described as a "black triangle" when in flight and seen from a distance, especially if you didn't know what it was.
As an aside, according to wikipedia, Aurora was just the name of the black project that was to become the B2 Spirit.
Having seen one at an airshow they look amazingly otherworldly and could easily be described as a "black triangle" when in flight and seen from a distance, especially if you didn't know what it was.
As an aside, according to wikipedia, Aurora was just the name of the black project that was to become the B2 Spirit.
dvs_dave said:
Didn't realise it was an artists impression. In which case I'd put money on what he actually saw was a B2 Spirit, which was reportedly brought into service around that time.
Having seen one at an airshow they look amazingly otherworldly and could easily be described as a "black triangle" when in flight and seen from a distance, especially if you didn't know what it was.
As an aside, according to wikipedia, Aurora was just the name of the black project that was to become the B2 Spirit.
The B2 looks absolutely nothing like what he drew. There is no way he'd get it that wrong. He specifically mentioned an 'isosceles triangle' in the interview. The B2 does not have the planform of an isosceles triangle!Having seen one at an airshow they look amazingly otherworldly and could easily be described as a "black triangle" when in flight and seen from a distance, especially if you didn't know what it was.
As an aside, according to wikipedia, Aurora was just the name of the black project that was to become the B2 Spirit.
From a distance, at an unknown viewing angle and in poor light conditions, not having ever seen one before you really believe it impossible for this man to have made a mistake in his excited and adrenaline fueled recollection of what he saw?
Logically speaking, if it weren't a B2 what other sort of large aircraft would tactically be required and for what purpose that the B2 couldn't do? That shape rules out a hypersonic aircraft for starters.
Logically speaking, if it weren't a B2 what other sort of large aircraft would tactically be required and for what purpose that the B2 couldn't do? That shape rules out a hypersonic aircraft for starters.
dvs_dave said:
From a distance, at an unknown viewing angle and in poor light conditions, not having ever seen one before you really believe it impossible for this man to have made a mistake in his excited and adrenaline fueled recollection of what he saw?
Logically speaking, if it weren't a B2 what other sort of large aircraft would tactically be required and for what purpose that the B2 couldn't do? That shape rules out a hypersonic aircraft for starters.
It wasn't an unknown viewing angle. It was *in formation* with two F-111's and a KC135, positioned as if refuelling from the KC 135, threfore if he could identify the F-111's, then he could easily estimate the triangular planform of the unidentified aircraft.Logically speaking, if it weren't a B2 what other sort of large aircraft would tactically be required and for what purpose that the B2 couldn't do? That shape rules out a hypersonic aircraft for starters.
The shape doesn't rule out a hypersonic aircraft, on the contrary, it is *exactly* the planform that would be required. I suggest you look up X-24B and X-43 (to name but a few), and read "Aurora" by Bill Sweetman, where you'll find a reasonably comprehensive evaluation of the design of hypersonic aircraft, both known and assumed.
dvs_dave said:
Didn't realise it was an artists impression. In which case I'd put money on what he actually saw was a B2 Spirit, which was reportedly brought into service around that time.
The first flight of the B2, heavily publicised, was only a few weeks before the 'sighting' so even allowing for some test flights starting before the official first flight I don't see it refuelling over the North sea at that time.jmorgan said:
You are sold on Aurora then?
Not at all. All I'm saying about this incident is that, IMHO, from the available information, either the guy saw exactly what he drew, or he made it up.It does seem strange though that one of the few people in the world who'd be almost unquestioned when it comes to aircraft recognition, happened to see a supposedly highly secret aircraft in excellent conditions. What are the chances of that?
Dr Jekyll said:
dvs_dave said:
Didn't realise it was an artists impression. In which case I'd put money on what he actually saw was a B2 Spirit, which was reportedly brought into service around that time.
The first flight of the B2, heavily publicised, was only a few weeks before the 'sighting' so even allowing for some test flights starting before the official first flight I don't see it refuelling over the North sea at that time.dr_gn said:
jmorgan said:
You are sold on Aurora then?
Not at all. All I'm saying about this incident is that, IMHO, from the available information, either the guy saw exactly what he drew, or he made it up.It does seem strange though that one of the few people in the world who'd be almost unquestioned when it comes to aircraft recognition, happened to see a supposedly highly secret aircraft in excellent conditions. What are the chances of that?
working class said:
I'll second that, one of the best books I've ever read.
I enjoyed it but likr s lot of conspiracy theories (which is bascially what it is.) he takes one really interesting fact & then runs off a tangent. I mean if the Americans had stolen anti-grav from the Nazis why would they now still keep it secret after all these years? Its the same point I made in the artifical petrol thread. Things have now reached the tipping point that if you have something that would cancel out the West's dependancy on the Arab states, now would surely be the time to do it?The interesting facts are the 'Henge', the 'Bell' and the disappearence of Klammer. That fascinates me. Unlike a lot of conspiracy theories, the 'Henge' exists and was built for something that obviously needed a lot of power. But what?
The Hypno-Toad said:
I enjoyed it but likr s lot of conspiracy theories (which is bascially what it is.) he takes one really interesting fact & then runs off a tangent. I mean if the Americans had stolen anti-grav from the Nazis why would they now still keep it secret after all these years? Its the same point I made in the artifical petrol thread. Things have now reached the tipping point that if you have something that would cancel out the West's dependancy on the Arab states, now would surely be the time to do it?
The interesting facts are the 'Henge', the 'Bell' and the disappearence of Klammer. That fascinates me. Unlike a lot of conspiracy theories, the 'Henge' exists and was built for something that obviously needed a lot of power. But what?
Unless you wanted to use up all the resources in the ME to deny access to them by others and to ensure when you do produce the new tech there will be back up plans for your competitors/opponents? The other book I mentioned has a chapter on synthetic oil, it is very interesting.The interesting facts are the 'Henge', the 'Bell' and the disappearence of Klammer. That fascinates me. Unlike a lot of conspiracy theories, the 'Henge' exists and was built for something that obviously needed a lot of power. But what?
The Kammler thing is also highly interesting, along with the lorry loads of data that the Yanks took out of Kammlers HQ
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff