HMS Queen Elizabeth

[AshVX220]

doogz said:

Ridiculous lifting arrangement. Glad to see it all worked though. Someone sent me pictures this morning.

The aft island doesn't leave here for a while yet.

The last T45 was supposed to sail tomorrow, but we've just heard it's not going til Monday now.

It is strange, but as you say, it works, which is the important thing.

Shame about Duncan, hope it's not a major issue.

The major steelwork for QNLZ should be finsihed by the end of the year I'd have thought, can't wait to see it built and ready to take our kit.

[Ross1988]

I'm not a lift engineer, but why is it a ridiculous lift? Looks fine to me and my untrained eyes, I've only ever had to deal with relatively lightweight lifts as a civil engineer, saying that, what sort of weight is it?

[AshVX220]

Ross1988 said:

I'm not a lift engineer, but why is it a ridiculous lift? Looks fine to me and my untrained eyes, I've only ever had to deal with relatively lightweight lifts as a civil engineer, saying that, what sort of weight is it?

I think, though am not sure, that the island weighs around 700tonnes (or tons I never know which).

As for the ridiculousness of it, doogz is referring to the cradle that was build to lift the Island (I think), all the other pieces have been lifted using lifting points direct onto the steel, without a bright yellow and black cradle in sight.

Having that cradle would have been more expensive I guess than just using built in lifting points.

Editted to add, someone far more intelligent than I'll ever be would have figured out all the calculations I guess and decided that a cradle was the safest way of lifting the Island.

doogz, do you know if they're going to have a similar arrangement for the aft island?

Edited by AshVX220 on Friday 15th March 11:03

[AshVX220]

doogz said:

You know what, I probably can't leave that here.

What I will say is that it was not the easiest, cheapest, or most sensible way to lift that, IMO.

Edited by doogz on Friday 15th March 11:24

[FourWheelDrift]

Isn't the island superstructure aluminium and better to lift that weight and size like that than with lifting points on the structure itself?

[hidetheelephants]

Aluminium warships = bad.

[MartG]

hidetheelephants said:

Aluminium warships = bad.

Ships with aluminium upperworks + steel hull = thermite

[hidetheelephants]

MartG said:

Ships with aluminium upperworks + steel hull = thermite

I'm not sure that's the main concern; the major lesson from the T21 and Galahad was that aluminium superstructures go very floppy in a fire followed shortly by total collapse, which makes firefighting and meaningful damage control impossible.

[Gazzas86]

Duncan didnt sail because she had a nice prang with another 45.

[HarryW]

AshVX220 said:

Ross1988 said:

I'm not a lift engineer, but why is it a ridiculous lift? Looks fine to me and my untrained eyes, I've only ever had to deal with relatively lightweight lifts as a civil engineer, saying that, what sort of weight is it?

I think, though am not sure, that the island weighs around 700tonnes (or tons I never know which).

As for the ridiculousness of it, doogz is referring to the cradle that was build to lift the Island (I think), all the other pieces have been lifted using lifting points direct onto the steel, without a bright yellow and black cradle in sight.

Having that cradle would have been more expensive I guess than just using built in lifting points.

Editted to add, someone far more intelligent than I'll ever be would have figured out all the calculations I guess and decided that a cradle was the safest way of lifting the Island.

doogz, do you know if they're going to have a similar arrangement for the aft island?

Edited by AshVX220 on Friday 15th March 11:03

Looked like spreader beams to me, not a lifting cradle. Not sure why anyone would consider it a ridiculous arrangement. Unless you do not understand the dynamics of lifting.
The alternative would be to redesign and build the strength (and commensurate weight) needed for the lift into the permanent structure, for what is a single lift, barking.

[Ross1988]

The lifts I have ever dealt with involved inserting a modular structure into a building, and we used a table like that to jack the structures in, Is it dropped into place and then fixed or is it dropped and then slid? I missed Doogz original comment, did I miss anything informative?

[Mojocvh]

Dissimilar metal corrosion, circulating currents et al.

Ouch.

[Wedg1e]

Gazzas86 said:

Duncan didnt sail because she had a nice prang with another 45.

Oh FFS. You'd think they'd be able to spot another ship in the vicinity with all those radars

Defender was alongside where I was working a week or two back at Portsmouth. Tied up, flurry of activity, then sailed again. They must have forgotten the rum

[Hooli]

Mojocvh said:

Dissimilar metal corrosion, circulating currents et al.

Ouch.

Also known as 'Landroveritis'

[Mojocvh]

FourWheelDrift said:

Isn't the island superstructure aluminium and better to lift that weight and size like that than with lifting points on the structure itself?

source?

[Oily Nails]

Hooli said:

Also known as 'Landroveritis'

OT
Funny you say that, I was just reading about the Type 45s and one is called HMS Defender
I wonder if Land Rover will provide the commander a shiny defender for shore use, as Jaguar sometimes did with X & S Types for the carriers.
Clearly there wouldn't be space actually on board for it but at the home port?

Anyway that's my musings over...carry on.

[Godalmighty83]

FourWheelDrift said:

Isn't the island superstructure aluminium and better to lift that weight and size like that than with lifting points on the structure itself?

Nope, steel, a little thin from the pictures I saw but steel nonetheless. A family friend swears that very good quality stuff is being used with a bit more give for less risk of cracking but time will tell in that regard.

Windows are pretty heavy too but then again they are full deck height and an inch and a half thick.

As for lifting it with the cradle rather then lifting points it might be because of weight balance, a lot of small rooms and heavy bits at the front of the island while the back end is a big old chuck of hollow to cater for the MT30 exhaust funnel which runs up through it.

For island

http://www.flickr.com/photos/qeclasscarriers/73141...

Aft island

http://www.flickr.com/photos/qeclasscarriers/74184...

[Seight_Returns]

Apologies if it's been covered before - but what's the thinking behind having 2 islands ?

Presumably to keep and aviation and ship driving functions seperate ?

[Godalmighty83]

Seight_Returns said:

Apologies if it's been covered before - but what's the thinking behind having 2 islands ?

Presumably to keep and aviation and ship driving functions seperate ?

For navigation purposes you want the island as far forward as possible for better vision etc, 150m of steel deck in front of you is the mother of all blindspots, for air control purposes you want to be as far back as possible for better vision of the aircraft and handling thereof on the deck.

So several options-

-place the island in one extreme or the other and make do with the extra struggle for the other purpose.
-stick the island in the middle and have the best/worst of both worlds.
-have two islands.

The islands also act as exhaust vents for the MT30's allowing the prime movers to be more separated for in theory better survivability and there is talk that there are also benefits to radar profile and less interference with island mounted equipment like the many bits of radar and other comms equipment that would be getting in each others way if all forced to share the same piece of roof.

I have nothing against the twin islands set up but I do have to wonder if they couldn't have been smaller with more tasks being done in the main hull. There is also a lot of weight up top as well, the forward island alone is heavier then the single island fitted to the GRF.

[IanMorewood]

Seight_Returns said:

Apologies if it's been covered before - but what's the thinking behind having 2 islands ?

Presumably to keep and aviation and ship driving functions seperate ?

Pretty much, boat driving will be done by the front island and the air group from the rear gives each a better setup than a bit of the middle each.