German WWII bombing raids - targets?
Discussion
mybrainhurts said:
dr_gn said:
mybrainhurts said:
dr_gn said:
mybrainhurts said:
There's a map somewhere in the bowels of Sheffield Town Hall, showing the points that unexploded bombs hit the ground.
Some are still there but, as they can move a long way beneath the surface, nobody knows where they are now.
The Council intended to keep the map secret, in order to prevent worry.
I feel a Freedom of Information request coming on...
The "Beam" for the first night of the Sheffield blitz crossed over the Duke of Wellington pub on the corner of Carlisle Street, bang in the middle of the steel works area. The beam was 'bent' over to the city centre, and that got a right pasting instead of the steelworks. Even so, when I worked at Forgemasters I often wondered what lay beneath!Some are still there but, as they can move a long way beneath the surface, nobody knows where they are now.
The Council intended to keep the map secret, in order to prevent worry.
I feel a Freedom of Information request coming on...
When I take over, we're invading France and exiling the French to Rotherham.
That'll teach 'em...
Presumably Rotherham's the thick, ugly, big-eared ginger twin with most of it's teeth missing.
dr_gn said:
mybrainhurts said:
dr_gn said:
mybrainhurts said:
dr_gn said:
mybrainhurts said:
There's a map somewhere in the bowels of Sheffield Town Hall, showing the points that unexploded bombs hit the ground.
Some are still there but, as they can move a long way beneath the surface, nobody knows where they are now.
The Council intended to keep the map secret, in order to prevent worry.
I feel a Freedom of Information request coming on...
The "Beam" for the first night of the Sheffield blitz crossed over the Duke of Wellington pub on the corner of Carlisle Street, bang in the middle of the steel works area. The beam was 'bent' over to the city centre, and that got a right pasting instead of the steelworks. Even so, when I worked at Forgemasters I often wondered what lay beneath!Some are still there but, as they can move a long way beneath the surface, nobody knows where they are now.
The Council intended to keep the map secret, in order to prevent worry.
I feel a Freedom of Information request coming on...
When I take over, we're invading France and exiling the French to Rotherham.
That'll teach 'em...
Presumably Rotherham's the thick, ugly, big-eared ginger twin with most of it's teeth missing.
TEKNOPUG said:
dr_gn said:
mybrainhurts said:
dr_gn said:
mybrainhurts said:
dr_gn said:
mybrainhurts said:
There's a map somewhere in the bowels of Sheffield Town Hall, showing the points that unexploded bombs hit the ground.
Some are still there but, as they can move a long way beneath the surface, nobody knows where they are now.
The Council intended to keep the map secret, in order to prevent worry.
I feel a Freedom of Information request coming on...
The "Beam" for the first night of the Sheffield blitz crossed over the Duke of Wellington pub on the corner of Carlisle Street, bang in the middle of the steel works area. The beam was 'bent' over to the city centre, and that got a right pasting instead of the steelworks. Even so, when I worked at Forgemasters I often wondered what lay beneath!Some are still there but, as they can move a long way beneath the surface, nobody knows where they are now.
The Council intended to keep the map secret, in order to prevent worry.
I feel a Freedom of Information request coming on...
When I take over, we're invading France and exiling the French to Rotherham.
That'll teach 'em...
Presumably Rotherham's the thick, ugly, big-eared ginger twin with most of it's teeth missing.
Eric Mc said:
Could British scientists actually "bend" these beams? I always thought that that is not what they did but that they jammed and scrambled them so much that the Luftwaffe crews could not ascertain their correct positions as precisely as they should.
That makes more sense, but the bending claim has been around since I was a nipper.The pub was demolished a few years ago.
Eric Mc said:
Could British scientists actually "bend" these beams? I always thought that that is not what they did but that they jammed and scrambled them so much that the Luftwaffe crews could not ascertain their correct positions as precisely as they should.
I think "bending" meant the overall effect rather than actually moving the intersection point. mybrainhurts said:
Eric Mc said:
Could British scientists actually "bend" these beams? I always thought that that is not what they did but that they jammed and scrambled them so much that the Luftwaffe crews could not ascertain their correct positions as precisely as they should.
The pub was demolished a few years ago.dr_gn said:
mybrainhurts said:
Eric Mc said:
Could British scientists actually "bend" these beams? I always thought that that is not what they did but that they jammed and scrambled them so much that the Luftwaffe crews could not ascertain their correct positions as precisely as they should.
The pub was demolished a few years ago.On a related note, the site of the Marples Hotel, that took a direct hit and has several victims entombed within its foundations, was occupied until recently by a branch of Hein Gericke....
http://www.hein-gericke.co.uk/1/
dr_gn said:
Eric Mc said:
Could British scientists actually "bend" these beams? I always thought that that is not what they did but that they jammed and scrambled them so much that the Luftwaffe crews could not ascertain their correct positions as precisely as they should.
I think "bending" meant the overall effect rather than actually moving the intersection point. However, because the word "bending" was used, some Irish people thought the Luftwaffe bombing of Dublin in 1941 was caused by the Brits deliberately bending the beam and deflecting the aiming point away from (say) Liverpool and onto Dublin.
That was nonsense of course, but some Irish firmly believe this to this day.
Edited by Eric Mc on Monday 13th September 15:38
Eric Mc said:
dr_gn said:
Eric Mc said:
Could British scientists actually "bend" these beams? I always thought that that is not what they did but that they jammed and scrambled them so much that the Luftwaffe crews could not ascertain their correct positions as precisely as they should.
I think "bending" meant the overall effect rather than actually moving the intersection point. However, because the word "bending" was used, some Irish people thought the Luftwaffe bombing of Dublin in 1941 was caused by the Brits deliberately bending the beam and deflecting the aiming point away from (say) Liverpool and onto Dublin.
That was nonsense of course, but some Irish firmly believe this to this day.
Actually, it's true...
Jerry still hasn't sussed it, but we bent the beam back over Berlin and they shot most of their own aircraft down with flak..
Edited by mybrainhurts on Monday 13th September 15:43
mybrainhurts said:
dr_gn said:
mybrainhurts said:
Eric Mc said:
Could British scientists actually "bend" these beams? I always thought that that is not what they did but that they jammed and scrambled them so much that the Luftwaffe crews could not ascertain their correct positions as precisely as they should.
The pub was demolished a few years ago.On a related note, the site of the Marples Hotel, that took a direct hit and has several victims entombed within its foundations, was occupied until recently by a branch of Hein Gericke....
http://www.hein-gericke.co.uk/1/
Sheffield was/is famous for cutlery. Messerschmitt roughly translates as "Knife Maker".
Eric Mc said:
I agree, I think they really meant "disrupting" or "disabling" rather than bending.
However, because the word "bending" was used, some Irish people thought the Luftwaffe bombing of Dublin in 1941 was caused by the Brits deliberately bending the beam and deflecting the aiming point away from (say) Liverpool and onto Dublin.
That was nonsense of course, but some Irish firmly believe this to this day.
The system was called 'Knickerbein' (Dog Leg) and was a development of the earlier 'Lorenz' blind landing system which was in many respects the fore runner of the modern ILS.However, because the word "bending" was used, some Irish people thought the Luftwaffe bombing of Dublin in 1941 was caused by the Brits deliberately bending the beam and deflecting the aiming point away from (say) Liverpool and onto Dublin.
That was nonsense of course, but some Irish firmly believe this to this day.
Quintessentially the Lorenz 'Beam' consisted of two Morse type signals - dots to one side of the centreline, dashes to the other side, such that when the a/c was 'on' the beam a continuous signal (equi-signal) would be heard.
Knickerbein took this further by upping the output power of the transmissions (Lorenz only had a range of around 20 miles) and adding a second transmitter, well displaced in distance from the first, with its 'beam' set to intersect the first over the target. Thus you would 'fly the beam' until you received the second signal which was the indication to release the bombs.
In an early form of EW, Avro Ansons were used to locate the Knickerbein beams and, initially the British effort (codenamed 'Aspirin') was to broadcast low power 'dot' signals at random which would mean the Luftwaffe picked up multiple equi-signal areas with no way to ascertain positional accuracy without a 'visual fix'.
Later the British transmitters were synchronised with the German transmitters giving false 'equi-signal' readings to the receivers meaning they would stray further and further into the 'dash' part of the beam. Thus while the beam was not bent per se, reception of the beam was, and enemy a/c could be 'bent' off track.
I hadn't heard about the Dublin story Eric but there was certainly a tale that the bombing of Belfast was the result of the Brits 'bending' the beams away from Bristol.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Eric Mc said:
I agree, I think they really meant "disrupting" or "disabling" rather than bending.
However, because the word "bending" was used, some Irish people thought the Luftwaffe bombing of Dublin in 1941 was caused by the Brits deliberately bending the beam and deflecting the aiming point away from (say) Liverpool and onto Dublin.
That was nonsense of course, but some Irish firmly believe this to this day.
The system was called 'Knickerbein' (Dog Leg) and was a development of the earlier 'Lorenz' blind landing system which was in many respects the fore runner of the modern ILS.However, because the word "bending" was used, some Irish people thought the Luftwaffe bombing of Dublin in 1941 was caused by the Brits deliberately bending the beam and deflecting the aiming point away from (say) Liverpool and onto Dublin.
That was nonsense of course, but some Irish firmly believe this to this day.
Quintessentially the Lorenz 'Beam' consisted of two Morse type signals - dots to one side of the centreline, dashes to the other side, such that when the a/c was 'on' the beam a continuous signal (equi-signal) would be heard.
Knickerbein took this further by upping the output power of the transmissions (Lorenz only had a range of around 20 miles) and adding a second transmitter, well displaced in distance from the first, with its 'beam' set to intersect the first over the target. Thus you would 'fly the beam' until you received the second signal which was the indication to release the bombs.
In an early form of EW, Avro Ansons were used to locate the Knickerbein beams and, initially the British effort (codenamed 'Aspirin') was to broadcast low power 'dot' signals at random which would mean the Luftwaffe picked up multiple equi-signal areas with no way to ascertain positional accuracy without a 'visual fix'.
Later the British transmitters were synchronised with the German transmitters giving false 'equi-signal' readings to the receivers meaning they would stray further and further into the 'dash' part of the beam. Thus while the beam was not bent per se, reception of the beam was, and enemy a/c could be 'bent' off track.
I hadn't heard about the Dublin story Eric but there was certainly a tale that the bombing of Belfast was the result of the Brits 'bending' the beams away from Bristol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams
And here:
Big book, lots of words, not many pictures.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I hadn't heard about the Dublin story Eric but there was certainly a tale that the bombing of Belfast was the result of the Brits 'bending' the beams away from Bristol.
That's seems to be somewhat unlikely to me. Belfast is a long way off course and distance from Bristol. Surely the navigators would still be monitoring their position even if they were using radio-beams to focus their attack? Unless they weren't actually told their target destination? Belfast would have been a legitimate industrial target for the Luftwaffe anyway?Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Eric Mc said:
I agree, I think they really meant "disrupting" or "disabling" rather than bending.
However, because the word "bending" was used, some Irish people thought the Luftwaffe bombing of Dublin in 1941 was caused by the Brits deliberately bending the beam and deflecting the aiming point away from (say) Liverpool and onto Dublin.
That was nonsense of course, but some Irish firmly believe this to this day.
The system was called 'Knickerbein' (Dog Leg) and was a development of the earlier 'Lorenz' blind landing system which was in many respects the fore runner of the modern ILS.However, because the word "bending" was used, some Irish people thought the Luftwaffe bombing of Dublin in 1941 was caused by the Brits deliberately bending the beam and deflecting the aiming point away from (say) Liverpool and onto Dublin.
That was nonsense of course, but some Irish firmly believe this to this day.
Quintessentially the Lorenz 'Beam' consisted of two Morse type signals - dots to one side of the centreline, dashes to the other side, such that when the a/c was 'on' the beam a continuous signal (equi-signal) would be heard.
Knickerbein took this further by upping the output power of the transmissions (Lorenz only had a range of around 20 miles) and adding a second transmitter, well displaced in distance from the first, with its 'beam' set to intersect the first over the target. Thus you would 'fly the beam' until you received the second signal which was the indication to release the bombs.
In an early form of EW, Avro Ansons were used to locate the Knickerbein beams and, initially the British effort (codenamed 'Aspirin') was to broadcast low power 'dot' signals at random which would mean the Luftwaffe picked up multiple equi-signal areas with no way to ascertain positional accuracy without a 'visual fix'.
Later the British transmitters were synchronised with the German transmitters giving false 'equi-signal' readings to the receivers meaning they would stray further and further into the 'dash' part of the beam. Thus while the beam was not bent per se, reception of the beam was, and enemy a/c could be 'bent' off track.
I hadn't heard about the Dublin story Eric but there was certainly a tale that the bombing of Belfast was the result of the Brits 'bending' the beams away from Bristol.
For years, the more generally accepted theory was that a German bomber was lost and dumped its bombs over what it thought was the sea. That is highly unlikely as Dublin did not have a full blackout in force so the city was still partially lit up. A German crew would have known precisely where they were as no British cities (including Belfast) would have had the lights on. That also scotches any theory that the Brits were "sending" the bombers to Dublin because the Germans would have realised they wwere looking down on Dublin and not Liverpool or Belfast.
It is now more generally thought that the bombs wetre dropped deliberately as a reprisal against Ireland for assisting Belfast during the Belfast Blitz of January 1941 and for taking bombed out refugees from Belfast. Germany still had an active embassy in Dublin and it is pretty likely that the breaches of Ireland's neutrality would have been reported back to Berlin, infuriating Hitler.
Germany never admitted to the bombing and even today has no official view as to what happened that night.
Edited by Eric Mc on Monday 13th September 16:36
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