Discussion
GR4 operations have moved from low level to medium level with PGMs (and SEAD where applicable) so as to stay out of the range of AAA, MANPAD and light weight SAMs. They have done so because current enemy combatants have no credible Air Defence assets and no credible Integrated Air Defence Ground Environment (Radars and Medium/High Level SAMs). Thus it makes sense for them to visually blend in with the sky.
Studies by both the USA/USN as well as the RAF in the late 1970's concluded that grey (or a combination of greys) work best for this because of the the similar reflectivity to the sky/cloud/haze.
Studies by both the USA/USN as well as the RAF in the late 1970's concluded that grey (or a combination of greys) work best for this because of the the similar reflectivity to the sky/cloud/haze.
Roberty said:
The major threat to aircraft is from the ground not the sky, this was a lesson learned in the Gulf war I believe.
That is only true for current operations. It is a huge mistake to assume that this will always be the case or, indeed, to become overly focused on Afghanistan! If we ever go up against an enemy with decent Air Defence assets and an integrated Radar and Sam system then medium level operations in an attack aircraft would be suicide. I would warrant that were that to be the case a/c would rapidly be repainted for low level operations.Although you'll more commonly see GR4s with the 'combination' paint scheme, i.e. different shades of grey for each panel. Due to them being replaced. 
I seem to remember 'Delta Kilo - DK', the anniversary jet for 31 sqn, which had the fin (with big goldstar on it), spine and canopy painted black, they had to change the canopy but only had a grey one so flew with that for a while, lol.
I seem to remember 'Delta Kilo - DK', the anniversary jet for 31 sqn, which had the fin (with big goldstar on it), spine and canopy painted black, they had to change the canopy but only had a grey one so flew with that for a while, lol.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
That is only true for current operations. It is a huge mistake to assume that this will always be the case or, indeed, to become overly focused on Afghanistan! If we ever go up against an enemy with decent Air Defence assets and an integrated Radar and Sam system then medium level operations in an attack aircraft would be suicide. I would warrant that were that to be the case a/c would rapidly be repainted for low level operations.
Fair point about the mission but I don't think they'll repaint them for a low level mission.The UK, US and many other modern air forces have moved away from ground cover camoflage as an enemy fighter jet or air defence battery doesn't need to visually see the aircraft to know where it is and fire at it.
The man on the ground with an AA gun or Stinger type missle is very much reliant on seeing the aircraft to locate and fire at it and flying low in Woodland camoflague against a grey or blue sky isn't going to hide you from them.
Did anyone see SKYNEWS this morning.
They did a freeze frame on a video of a Tornado GR.4
They then drew circles round it's ordance and explained what each item was.
They described the Paveway laser guided bombs as being small unguided bombs.
They then moved on to the two huge drop tanks and explained how they were precision anit-runway bombs!
Great research Sky!
I've also lost count of the amount of times they've shown pictures of F-16's and described them as being F-15's and vice-versa.
They did a freeze frame on a video of a Tornado GR.4
They then drew circles round it's ordance and explained what each item was.
They described the Paveway laser guided bombs as being small unguided bombs.
They then moved on to the two huge drop tanks and explained how they were precision anit-runway bombs!
Great research Sky!
I've also lost count of the amount of times they've shown pictures of F-16's and described them as being F-15's and vice-versa.
Roberty said:
Did anyone see SKYNEWS this morning.
They did a freeze frame on a video of a Tornado GR.4
They then drew circles round it's ordance and explained what each item was.
They described the Paveway laser guided bombs as being small unguided bombs.
They then moved on to the two huge drop tanks and explained how they were precision anit-runway bombs!
Great research Sky!
I've also lost count of the amount of times they've shown pictures of F-16's and described them as being F-15's and vice-versa.
They are morons! Anyone see one of the 41sqn jets on Monday nights national news? Going to war apparently. They did a freeze frame on a video of a Tornado GR.4
They then drew circles round it's ordance and explained what each item was.
They described the Paveway laser guided bombs as being small unguided bombs.
They then moved on to the two huge drop tanks and explained how they were precision anit-runway bombs!
Great research Sky!
I've also lost count of the amount of times they've shown pictures of F-16's and described them as being F-15's and vice-versa.
Yesterday too, they were reporting about the tonka in Libya but had 3sqn typhoons being shown.
Having said that, my mum thought they were bombs too, lol.
Edited by PaulG40 on Saturday 26th March 07:36
Roberty said:
Did anyone see SKYNEWS this morning.
They did a freeze frame on a video of a Tornado GR.4
They then drew circles round it's ordance and explained what each item was.
They described the Paveway laser guided bombs as being small unguided bombs.
They then moved on to the two huge drop tanks and explained how they were precision anit-runway bombs!
Great research Sky!
I've also lost count of the amount of times they've shown pictures of F-16's and described them as being F-15's and vice-versa.
Please tell me thats on youtube or something? I've had a look through sky site, but not been lucky yet.They did a freeze frame on a video of a Tornado GR.4
They then drew circles round it's ordance and explained what each item was.
They described the Paveway laser guided bombs as being small unguided bombs.
They then moved on to the two huge drop tanks and explained how they were precision anit-runway bombs!
Great research Sky!
I've also lost count of the amount of times they've shown pictures of F-16's and described them as being F-15's and vice-versa.
Roberty said:
Did anyone see SKYNEWS this morning.
They did a freeze frame on a video of a Tornado GR.4
They then drew circles round it's ordance and explained what each item was.
They described the Paveway laser guided bombs as being small unguided bombs.
They then moved on to the two huge drop tanks and explained how they were precision anit-runway bombs!
Great research Sky!
I've also lost count of the amount of times they've shown pictures of F-16's and described them as being F-15's and vice-versa.
Par for the course with numb-nuts journo's these days...... why waste time bothering to search for the right facts when you can just make something up, on the basis that the average member of joe-public doesn't give a fThey did a freeze frame on a video of a Tornado GR.4
They then drew circles round it's ordance and explained what each item was.
They described the Paveway laser guided bombs as being small unguided bombs.
They then moved on to the two huge drop tanks and explained how they were precision anit-runway bombs!
Great research Sky!
I've also lost count of the amount of times they've shown pictures of F-16's and described them as being F-15's and vice-versa.
k anyway.aeropilot said:
Roberty said:
Did anyone see SKYNEWS this morning.
They did a freeze frame on a video of a Tornado GR.4
They then drew circles round it's ordance and explained what each item was.
They described the Paveway laser guided bombs as being small unguided bombs.
They then moved on to the two huge drop tanks and explained how they were precision anit-runway bombs!
Great research Sky!
I've also lost count of the amount of times they've shown pictures of F-16's and described them as being F-15's and vice-versa.
Par for the course with numb-nuts journo's these days...... why waste time bothering to search for the right facts when you can just make something up, on the basis that the average member of joe-public doesn't give a fThey did a freeze frame on a video of a Tornado GR.4
They then drew circles round it's ordance and explained what each item was.
They described the Paveway laser guided bombs as being small unguided bombs.
They then moved on to the two huge drop tanks and explained how they were precision anit-runway bombs!
Great research Sky!
I've also lost count of the amount of times they've shown pictures of F-16's and described them as being F-15's and vice-versa.
k anyway.Simpo Two said:
Of course they may have been aware that Johnny Dervish could be watching and taking notes. I'm not aware there were any news stories about the Upkeep Bomb bouncing bomb in April 1943; why spill military info on the global media now?
Sadly, I don't think (on previous evidence) that our Media are that savvy or bothered about such things.
Roberty said:
The UK, US and many other modern air forces have moved away from ground cover camouflage as an enemy fighter jet or air defence battery doesn't need to visually see the aircraft to know where it is and fire at it.
No it's only because we currently operate at medium level.Roberty said:
The man on the ground with an AA gun or Stinger type missile is very much reliant on seeing the aircraft to locate and fire at it and flying low in Woodland camouflage against a grey or blue sky isn't going to hide you from them.
When you have an a/c in the weedosphere going like a bat out of hell then "The man on the ground with an AA gun or Stinger type missile" has very little time to get a weapon on target owing to the angular rate of change and that's without 'terrain masking'. Thus operating at low level gives you a lot of advantages all of which would be thrown away to an enemy AD force if you were to be flying around in a light grey camo scheme!Roberty said:
an enemy fighter jet doesn't need to visually see the aircraft to know where it is and fire at it.
Breaking a target out against ground clutter, even with the best PD radar in the world isn't as easy as you might think, even if you do, getting a missile kill is problematic at best. Getting a guns kill is your best hope and for that you need to see the target - all of which is easier for the enemy if you don't blend in visually with the ground.So, as I said, if we ever go up against an enemy with credible AD assets and an IADGE then we will swap to low level and the jets will get a rapid repaint.
I like what the RN does with some of it's Merlin fleet. The Tiger stripes of old can't work now as they are too colourful, so the odd Merlin gets a two tone grey paint job - complete with teeth on the helo's "face."
To the casual observer it looks like some sort of disruptive patter camo.
To the casual observer it looks like some sort of disruptive patter camo.
Sounds a bit like the black and white disruptive pattern they used to put on for Norwegian exercises. The enemy would think a white helicopter was going one way, when it was actually black and going the other way, it would be like trying to shoot down Michael Jackson.
Edited by Dr Jekyll on Sunday 27th March 17:40
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