Sir Ben & the Americas Cup
Discussion
Snoggledog said:
dukeboy749r said:
Asking as sailing novice. Sir Ben has a deservedly high Olympic legacy, but has that translated into ‘bigger boat’ racing success?
To lose all your races is surely not reflective of the calibre of the crew and investment made. So what are the reasons?
IMHO Sir Ben is amongst the finest single handed sailors out there. But sailing in a single hander requires a subtly different toolkit to one where you're sailing with more than one person. With a single hander you are your own master and the only thing that you have to do is to move as quickly as possible through the water. Get it right and you've won. Get it wrong and you've lost. As soon as you add one or more people to the mix, then management and leadership become an important factor and I'm not sure that Sir Ben can do that particularly well. If you listen to the commentary from the other boats there tends to be more praise, more interaction and more feedback. From what I've heard (youtube so could be selectively edited) the Ineos team just don't seem to be working together.To lose all your races is surely not reflective of the calibre of the crew and investment made. So what are the reasons?
As to the hull, it's not a design that I would have gone for. From some angles it appears to be an attempt to have an inverted wing. What's the point in trying to push the hull down in the water when the dry weight is 70 tons? All you're doing is potentially increasing your wetted surface area which equates to more drag.
I get the impression he doesn’t really get it from an empathetic point of view but just learns to do it because it works better.
A lot of these top sports people have very different personalities and don’t work well in a team they can learn to do it but don’t really understand it because it’s not natural to them.
I think what’s going wrong at the moment is mainly to do with the boat and foils through and not Sir Ben imho.
El stovey said:
Snoggledog said:
dukeboy749r said:
Asking as sailing novice. Sir Ben has a deservedly high Olympic legacy, but has that translated into ‘bigger boat’ racing success?
To lose all your races is surely not reflective of the calibre of the crew and investment made. So what are the reasons?
IMHO Sir Ben is amongst the finest single handed sailors out there. But sailing in a single hander requires a subtly different toolkit to one where you're sailing with more than one person. With a single hander you are your own master and the only thing that you have to do is to move as quickly as possible through the water. Get it right and you've won. Get it wrong and you've lost. As soon as you add one or more people to the mix, then management and leadership become an important factor and I'm not sure that Sir Ben can do that particularly well. If you listen to the commentary from the other boats there tends to be more praise, more interaction and more feedback. From what I've heard (youtube so could be selectively edited) the Ineos team just don't seem to be working together.To lose all your races is surely not reflective of the calibre of the crew and investment made. So what are the reasons?
As to the hull, it's not a design that I would have gone for. From some angles it appears to be an attempt to have an inverted wing. What's the point in trying to push the hull down in the water when the dry weight is 70 tons? All you're doing is potentially increasing your wetted surface area which equates to more drag.
I get the impression he doesn’t really get it from an empathetic point of view but just learns to do it because it works better.
A lot of these top sports people have very different personalities and don’t work well in a team they can learn to do it but don’t really understand it because it’s not natural to them.
I think what’s going wrong at the moment is mainly to do with the boat and foils through and not Sir Ben imho.
IMHO at this level of sailing every component (human or mechanical) is a factor. One weak shackle or one misplaced word can cost the whole race and the regatta
Snoggledog said:
Interesting about that podcast, I wasn't aware. I'll look out for that.
IMHO at this level of sailing every component (human or mechanical) is a factor. One weak shackle or one misplaced word can cost the whole race and the regatta
It’s on the high performance podcastIMHO at this level of sailing every component (human or mechanical) is a factor. One weak shackle or one misplaced word can cost the whole race and the regatta
https://www.jakehumphreyofficial.com/news/article/...
It’s on iTunes and Spotify YouTube etc
Some great interviews on there.
Snoggledog said:
dukeboy749r said:
Asking as sailing novice. Sir Ben has a deservedly high Olympic legacy, but has that translated into ‘bigger boat’ racing success?
To lose all your races is surely not reflective of the calibre of the crew and investment made. So what are the reasons?
IMHO Sir Ben is amongst the finest single handed sailors out there. But sailing in a single hander requires a subtly different toolkit to one where you're sailing with more than one person. With a single hander you are your own master and the only thing that you have to do is to move as quickly as possible through the water. Get it right and you've won. Get it wrong and you've lost. As soon as you add one or more people to the mix, then management and leadership become an important factor and I'm not sure that Sir Ben can do that particularly well. If you listen to the commentary from the other boats there tends to be more praise, more interaction and more feedback. From what I've heard (youtube so could be selectively edited) the Ineos team just don't seem to be working together.To lose all your races is surely not reflective of the calibre of the crew and investment made. So what are the reasons?
As to the hull, it's not a design that I would have gone for. From some angles it appears to be an attempt to have an inverted wing. What's the point in trying to push the hull down in the water when the dry weight is 70 tons? All you're doing is potentially increasing your wetted surface area which equates to more drag.
Snoggledog said:
AlexS said:
I think you've got a decimal point in the wrong place. The boats are only 7.5 tonnes fully loaded.
I must have misheard the video that I was watching. 70 tonnes did seem a bit on the weighty side 
Sort of goes against the spirit of Americas Cup racing, never mind the sheer terror of something at that speed weighing that much. And of course, the magnificent effort to get 70 tonnes foiling. 
Tyre Smoke said:
Snoggledog said:
AlexS said:
I think you've got a decimal point in the wrong place. The boats are only 7.5 tonnes fully loaded.
I must have misheard the video that I was watching. 70 tonnes did seem a bit on the weighty side Sort of goes against the spirit of Americas Cup racing, never mind the sheer terror of something at that speed weighing that much. And of course, the magnificent effort to get 70 tonnes foiling. Yeah I know...On a side note, I went to an open day at Strathclyde University when I was but a mere aspiring student and as part of the tour they demonstrated their test tank. At the time I think (please don't quote me on this) it was the largest test tank of any university. They proved that it was possible, dynamically, to get a supertanker to plane
sawman said:
Rita seemed to have an edge in speed when both boats in displacement mode downwind - if we are looking for positives
The performance of this boat is woeful but maybe, being generous, they have designed and set the boat up to perform at the top end of the wind prediction? I know, grasping at straws, however this boat hasn't lacked in investment and unless the Kiwis have played another blinder (probably) gauging the likely winds in another El Nino year, I see no other excuse other than the team not performing.Whether that can be laid at Ben's door, I cannot comment!
pequod said:
sawman said:
Rita seemed to have an edge in speed when both boats in displacement mode downwind - if we are looking for positives
The performance of this boat is woeful but maybe, being generous, they have designed and set the boat up to perform at the top end of the wind prediction? I know, grasping at straws, however this boat hasn't lacked in investment and unless the Kiwis have played another blinder (probably) gauging the likely winds in another El Nino year, I see no other excuse other than the team not performing.Whether that can be laid at Ben's door, I cannot comment!
Falling off the foils at the start line because the TOS was misjudged is not the boat's fault. Knowing that it's ultra critical to stay on the foils it's obvious that you need to be 25m behind rather than try & time it perfectly. Ineos got lapped. Lapped. It was awful, & not just a one off.
Mr Pointy said:
Falling off the foils at the start line because the TOS was misjudged is not the boat's fault. Knowing that it's ultra critical to stay on the foils it's obvious that you need to be 25m behind rather than try & time it perfectly. Ineos got lapped. Lapped. It was awful, & not just a one off.
Care to provide your view what, other than a poor starting position, is the problem?It has already been suggested that the Kiwi designer of the foils has added another 60 tonnes to the boat, but maybe you have another reason?
BTW he retired the race, as the Kiwis had stolen the wind, b*stards!
pequod said:
Mr Pointy said:
Falling off the foils at the start line because the TOS was misjudged is not the boat's fault. Knowing that it's ultra critical to stay on the foils it's obvious that you need to be 25m behind rather than try & time it perfectly. Ineos got lapped. Lapped. It was awful, & not just a one off.
Care to provide your view what, other than a poor starting position, is the problem?It has already been suggested that the Kiwi designer of the foils has added another 60 tonnes to the boat, but maybe you have another reason?
BTW he retired the race, as the Kiwis had stolen the wind, b*stards!
Tyre Smoke said:
pequod said:
Tyre Smoke said:
That's because we've seen Brendan Hartley in an F1 car. 
The WEC is hardly F1 but maybe he can progress to get a seat in the track version competing with the big boys, if he's good enough?NZ, I predict, will win the Xmas challenge tomorrow, but let's see who are on the mark when the 'real' AC begins next year!
Us Kiwis do sheep, rugby, beer and Americas Cup racing rather well. F1 not so much.
Ng? mihi old man!
I apologise, he was a brilliant driver delivering 4 points. See, it isn't difficult to apologise occasionally? Care to rectify your previous?
Oh, BTW, I have 4 generations of Kiwi family who are proud to stay and promote their fabulous wines, fly fishing, rearing top quality horses and riders, and generally being good people.
Meri Kirihimete, cabby!
Sad. Very sad.
Just move on. You're a nasty ego that is following me around this website. I owe you nothing except you seem to not understand a differing opinion to your ego. Now let it go, life is too short.
Anyway, onwards and upwards to another AC victory.
Just move on. You're a nasty ego that is following me around this website. I owe you nothing except you seem to not understand a differing opinion to your ego. Now let it go, life is too short.
Anyway, onwards and upwards to another AC victory.
Edited by Tyre Smoke on Sunday 20th December 21:13
Amazing machines. Crap racing.
I hope Britannia is optimised for different conditions and they get them in the cup proper.
Pre-Starts are usually the most interesting bit but no one wants to really engage, and Ineos cocking up the Christmas race start completely was just the icing on the cake really.
Interesting that someone said they’re only allowed 6 foils and that Ineos have used them all up already. Is that for the whole series right through to the final?
I hope Britannia is optimised for different conditions and they get them in the cup proper.
Pre-Starts are usually the most interesting bit but no one wants to really engage, and Ineos cocking up the Christmas race start completely was just the icing on the cake really.
Interesting that someone said they’re only allowed 6 foils and that Ineos have used them all up already. Is that for the whole series right through to the final?
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