Boat repair work advice
Discussion
m0ssy said:
pah ye of little faith 
I have always said those that can.. do, and those that can't should try anyway
Im off down the mooring for some serious fibreglassing;
gloves ... check
work clothes... check
shower cap... check
a wealth of experience and knowledge...... *cough*
Yep same as that. On my way now to try and sort out the lack of 240 from the generator. Using the bloody gas ring for a cup of tea when away from the mooring is becoming a real downer to a successful day out on the water. And I've got to change the bed sheets.I have always said those that can.. do, and those that can't should try anyway
Im off down the mooring for some serious fibreglassing;
gloves ... check
work clothes... check
shower cap... check
a wealth of experience and knowledge...... *cough*
Seems we both have a tiresome day in front of us. Boats eh?
Oh and thanks for your concern on the phone over my problems
Simpo Two said:
MOTORVATOR said:
Would you be available to do a photoshoot next weekend? mickrick said:
You need to cut out the top skin in the affected areas, remove the rotten balsa core and replace, chamfer the edges of the hole and the top skin you previously cut out, and glass it back in.
West System is your friend.
A vacum pump would be usefull.
As prefiously mentioned, silicone is useless, as the seal doesn't last.
Also the core should be removed around holes and filled with epoxy to seal the edges of the core.
Fittings should be bedded on Polysulfide sealant.
Wessex resins (The U.K. west system people) do an excellent weekend course on fiberglass boat repair. It would be a good investment to get yourself along to it.
Fitted out my Rival using Wests System many years ago, as you say excellent product.West System is your friend.
A vacum pump would be usefull.
As prefiously mentioned, silicone is useless, as the seal doesn't last.
Also the core should be removed around holes and filled with epoxy to seal the edges of the core.
Fittings should be bedded on Polysulfide sealant.
Wessex resins (The U.K. west system people) do an excellent weekend course on fiberglass boat repair. It would be a good investment to get yourself along to it.
The "correct" way to repair this is as follows:
Remove sagging inner laminate.
Remove soggy core.
Clean up.
Apply new core (balsa or high density structural foam) to underside of uoter laminate. Will probably need to vacuum this in place.
Apply new inner laminate to the core you've just fitted ensuring sufficient overlap with the surrounding sound deck areas.
However, this is pretty difficult to do as a DIY job all in one go.
It might be made simpler by replacing sections at a time - ie 2' square?
The suggestion of doing it from the outside is not a bad one in principal as it means that all work is downwards and should not need any vacuum gear. Additionally the edges could probably be hidden beneath the Treadmaster panels. BUT - looking at the photos the inner laminate has lost all of its shape. This method won't work.
As others have said in way of any fittings the core should be removed and the void filled with something solid such as a dense epoxy filler (microfibres, not balloons).
Another method which has been suggested is to cut out the inner laminate and core and fit conventional deck beams / stringers. GRP laid up over foam formers.
I'm not convinced of the expanding foam method - but it's a lot simpler than the other two methods.
Let us know how you get on.
Remove sagging inner laminate.
Remove soggy core.
Clean up.
Apply new core (balsa or high density structural foam) to underside of uoter laminate. Will probably need to vacuum this in place.
Apply new inner laminate to the core you've just fitted ensuring sufficient overlap with the surrounding sound deck areas.
However, this is pretty difficult to do as a DIY job all in one go.
It might be made simpler by replacing sections at a time - ie 2' square?
The suggestion of doing it from the outside is not a bad one in principal as it means that all work is downwards and should not need any vacuum gear. Additionally the edges could probably be hidden beneath the Treadmaster panels. BUT - looking at the photos the inner laminate has lost all of its shape. This method won't work.
As others have said in way of any fittings the core should be removed and the void filled with something solid such as a dense epoxy filler (microfibres, not balloons).
Another method which has been suggested is to cut out the inner laminate and core and fit conventional deck beams / stringers. GRP laid up over foam formers.
I'm not convinced of the expanding foam method - but it's a lot simpler than the other two methods.
Let us know how you get on.
Putting deckhead beams in won't have the stiffness of two skins and a core.
Much easier to do it from the top IMO, the inner skin could be pushed up and held in place while the new core is being relaced from above, then vacum bag the top skin and core down. The inner skin would keep its shape then once it's all cured.
I wouldn't even want to think about trying to work with epoxy upside down!
Much easier to do it from the top IMO, the inner skin could be pushed up and held in place while the new core is being relaced from above, then vacum bag the top skin and core down. The inner skin would keep its shape then once it's all cured.
I wouldn't even want to think about trying to work with epoxy upside down!
I feel there are a number of methods that will work when re-constructing the roof.
It is important to remember that I want to keep fibreglassing down to a minimum, so am trying to do a method that will use expanding foam, I will also add battens directly under any hole so the screws/ bolts can pull in tight without stressing the GRP.
I am trying to buy a closed cell expanding foam that is one part in one can.... bloody hard, the only products I have come up with so far are:
http://www.screwfix.com/p/pu-b3-rapid-installation... - seems a good product although unsure if its semi-closed cell or not
also: http://www.expandingfoamkits.co.uk/category_0-13_E...
However the main issue I am dealing with at the moment is the problem of water ingress and ensuring I can stop ALL water getting in to the coachhouse roof cavity. So have now taken all of the hardwood off that the rails were bolted to, and will take off all of the vents today on the roof. Once everything has been cleaned up, re-varnished of wood, I will epoxy hardwood battens under each screw hole/ bolthole for extra strength, sikaflex/ marine sealant back in place all the vents and fittings and hopefully all the water will remain on the outside of the structure.
Huntsman mentioned in another post that its important to keep the water out, so i guess this is first on the list before I even start the roof re-construction.
And to think.... all I was trying to do initially was tighten 2 bolts!
It is important to remember that I want to keep fibreglassing down to a minimum, so am trying to do a method that will use expanding foam, I will also add battens directly under any hole so the screws/ bolts can pull in tight without stressing the GRP.
I am trying to buy a closed cell expanding foam that is one part in one can.... bloody hard, the only products I have come up with so far are:
http://www.screwfix.com/p/pu-b3-rapid-installation... - seems a good product although unsure if its semi-closed cell or not
also: http://www.expandingfoamkits.co.uk/category_0-13_E...
However the main issue I am dealing with at the moment is the problem of water ingress and ensuring I can stop ALL water getting in to the coachhouse roof cavity. So have now taken all of the hardwood off that the rails were bolted to, and will take off all of the vents today on the roof. Once everything has been cleaned up, re-varnished of wood, I will epoxy hardwood battens under each screw hole/ bolthole for extra strength, sikaflex/ marine sealant back in place all the vents and fittings and hopefully all the water will remain on the outside of the structure.
Huntsman mentioned in another post that its important to keep the water out, so i guess this is first on the list before I even start the roof re-construction.
And to think.... all I was trying to do initially was tighten 2 bolts!
So at the weekend plan went into action and I cut away minimal amounts of the roof so it could dry out and I could use the expanding foam:
Toilet area
Starboard side:
Port Side:
And while I was there took off all the woodword too as was sure water was probably ingressing under that, and was correct a bit damp:
Then I took off all the vents from the outside:
Then got all the varnish off ready for sanding, look at the quality of my workmate
:
More to come....
Toilet area
Starboard side:
Port Side:
And while I was there took off all the woodword too as was sure water was probably ingressing under that, and was correct a bit damp:
Then I took off all the vents from the outside:
Then got all the varnish off ready for sanding, look at the quality of my workmate
:More to come....
But... I have always said if a job is worth doing, it's worth doing right!
This expanding foam idea is not going to work, I had been thinking about it over the weekend, had a chat with MOTORVATOR, who naturally spent 80% of the time taking the piss out of me, and 20% valuable information and discussion
I am not going to be happy unless the whole roof comes out and I re-line it with closed cell foam for marine applications, so last night armed with my cutter, got really messy and removed the internal roof:
Toilet:
Starboard side:
Port Side:
The bits of hardwood epoxyed in are under each screw/ bolt hole and I will be adding more for further strength.
A messy job, but all out, I hope someone doesn't walk on my roof while its moored as not much strength there now!
This expanding foam idea is not going to work, I had been thinking about it over the weekend, had a chat with MOTORVATOR, who naturally spent 80% of the time taking the piss out of me, and 20% valuable information and discussion
I am not going to be happy unless the whole roof comes out and I re-line it with closed cell foam for marine applications, so last night armed with my cutter, got really messy and removed the internal roof:
Toilet:
Starboard side:
Port Side:
The bits of hardwood epoxyed in are under each screw/ bolt hole and I will be adding more for further strength.
A messy job, but all out, I hope someone doesn't walk on my roof while its moored as not much strength there now!
m0ssy said:
This expanding foam idea is not going to work, I had been thinking about it over the weekend, had a chat with MOTORVATOR, who naturally spent 80% of the time taking the piss out of me, and 20% valuable information and discussion
Glad I could be of help. Did I mention about the trouble I was having making a cup of tea off the mooring. Turns out I have to re energise the generator with a pp9 battery, bloody bugbear that's going to be.
And I've had to buy a new clicker thingy for my barbeque to stop me burning my fingers.
Thanks for your concern.
Just think how much easier that would have been to do from the top.
One big panel to take out, and a small strip around the edge to glass it back in, and most of the repair re-covered in treadmaster.
Please post some pictures during the repair, of you putting it all back up from underneath!
I did a repair on a de-laminated deck a couple of years ago, where a tender crane was lifting so much, you could get your fingers under it when the tender was hanging off it.
It was a teak decked flybridge. I lifted the teak, and cut the top skin out of the deck, removed the core, and glassed to top and bottom skin together.
Then it was lvelled off with epoxy filler to give an even base. I used a wooden guide run along two strips of wood screwed to the deck to keep it level.
Then it was primed.
Then a 15mm alloy plate vacum bonded in.
Then it was glassed over and faired..
And the teak decking re-laid.
More structure was added underneath.
The timber was glassed over, and a stainless steel box fabricated, and bolted into the alloy plate above with thread bar.
The box was then tied into the additional beams with an alloy plate, also bolted through to the top plate.
The idea behind this was to increase the dimension between the plates, therefore adding stiffness to the structure.
The crane was then bolted back on.
Sorry for the hijack! Thought you might find it interesting.
One big panel to take out, and a small strip around the edge to glass it back in, and most of the repair re-covered in treadmaster.
Please post some pictures during the repair, of you putting it all back up from underneath!
I did a repair on a de-laminated deck a couple of years ago, where a tender crane was lifting so much, you could get your fingers under it when the tender was hanging off it.
It was a teak decked flybridge. I lifted the teak, and cut the top skin out of the deck, removed the core, and glassed to top and bottom skin together.
Then it was lvelled off with epoxy filler to give an even base. I used a wooden guide run along two strips of wood screwed to the deck to keep it level.
Then it was primed.
Then a 15mm alloy plate vacum bonded in.
Then it was glassed over and faired..
And the teak decking re-laid.
More structure was added underneath.
The timber was glassed over, and a stainless steel box fabricated, and bolted into the alloy plate above with thread bar.
The box was then tied into the additional beams with an alloy plate, also bolted through to the top plate.
The idea behind this was to increase the dimension between the plates, therefore adding stiffness to the structure.
The crane was then bolted back on.
Sorry for the hijack! Thought you might find it interesting.
mickrick said:
Just think how much easier that would have been to do from the top.
One big panel to take out, and a small strip around the edge to glass it back in, and most of the repair re-covered in treadmaster.
Interesting post mickrick and looks a great job you have done there. One big panel to take out, and a small strip around the edge to glass it back in, and most of the repair re-covered in treadmaster.
However disagree that it would have been easier to do from the top. Remember I am joe-public who does't have masses of boat fibreglassing experience and I am moored bankside on private land with a hose and a powerpoint for company not on a marina with all sorts of equipment and access.
The top skin of grp is fine, has not weakened, however bottom fibreglass skin had deteriorated and required removal. Tried to do a bit saturday and got some of the new closed cell foam cut to shape and epoxyed to the roof but bad weather was a bit of a nightmare as slowed me down somewhat and didn't get as much done as would have liked, so there tonight and tomorrow to finish epoxying the foam to the ceiling and will get pictures.
Foam I used was Airex C70 75 which is a marine grade foam for use in coach house roofs etc, real stiff dense stuff to be honest but easy to cut and work with.
http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheettext.aspx?ma...
http://shop.r-g.de/out/media/td_en_Airex_C70.pdf
You two and your old technology. 
I'm having a tactical laser system from BAE fitted to the passarelle as we speak.
Should improve the fishing catch tenfold and be a handy tool for fending off unwanted interest in my cocktail cabinets.
Just got to sort the budget guarantees now, should be alright they seem a fairly good company to work with
I'm having a tactical laser system from BAE fitted to the passarelle as we speak.
Should improve the fishing catch tenfold and be a handy tool for fending off unwanted interest in my cocktail cabinets.
Just got to sort the budget guarantees now, should be alright they seem a fairly good company to work with
mOssy, the only difference between yourself, or "Joe Public" is I get paid for my time, and I had the use of a Vac pump.
I'm no composites expert, I skipper the boat, and maintain it. What I've learnt is all from books, my own research, and I did the weekend course at wessex resins, as mentioned earlier on in your thread. (Which again, is worth every penny!)
Folks can poke fun at the crane if they wish, but there's no difference between that job, and yours. The crane merely emphasises the strength of a cored deck, which is essentially what yours is.
I can't see how you can dissagree that cutting out below between bulkheads, framework, and working upside down, is harder than taking out a square panel, working from above and letting gravity help you, and sticking it back down again?
You asked for advice, I gave you some from personal experience.
Good luck with the job.
Regards,
Mick.
I'm no composites expert, I skipper the boat, and maintain it. What I've learnt is all from books, my own research, and I did the weekend course at wessex resins, as mentioned earlier on in your thread. (Which again, is worth every penny!)
Folks can poke fun at the crane if they wish, but there's no difference between that job, and yours. The crane merely emphasises the strength of a cored deck, which is essentially what yours is.
I can't see how you can dissagree that cutting out below between bulkheads, framework, and working upside down, is harder than taking out a square panel, working from above and letting gravity help you, and sticking it back down again?
You asked for advice, I gave you some from personal experience.
Good luck with the job.
Regards,
Mick.
mickrick said:
mOssy, the only difference between yourself, or "Joe Public" is I get paid for my time, and I had the use of a Vac pump.
I'm no composites expert, I skipper the boat, and maintain it. What I've learnt is all from books, my own research, and I did the weekend course at wessex resins, as mentioned earlier on in your thread. (Which again, is worth every penny!)
Folks can poke fun at the crane if they wish, but there's no difference between that job, and yours. The crane merely emphasises the strength of a cored deck, which is essentially what yours is.
I can't see how you can dissagree that cutting out below between bulkheads, framework, and working upside down, is harder than taking out a square panel, working from above and letting gravity help you, and sticking it back down again?
You asked for advice, I gave you some from personal experience.
Good luck with the job.
Regards,
Mick.
mickrick your advice is appreciated and you have done a great job on the boat with the pictures you have shown. However I can see the job and I know my boat and going up is a dam site easier trust me. Why do I want to get involved in cutting grp, replacing non slip coatings, matching up paints and desperately trying to get a good finish? All I need to do is quite simply remove the rotten fibreglass underneath, remove the crappy balsa core then replace leaving the perfectly good outside GRP skin as is. The only problem as said is to fibre glass upwards which to me is no hassle compared to cutting the boat up into bits purely so I can fibreglass downwards.I'm no composites expert, I skipper the boat, and maintain it. What I've learnt is all from books, my own research, and I did the weekend course at wessex resins, as mentioned earlier on in your thread. (Which again, is worth every penny!)
Folks can poke fun at the crane if they wish, but there's no difference between that job, and yours. The crane merely emphasises the strength of a cored deck, which is essentially what yours is.
I can't see how you can dissagree that cutting out below between bulkheads, framework, and working upside down, is harder than taking out a square panel, working from above and letting gravity help you, and sticking it back down again?
You asked for advice, I gave you some from personal experience.
Good luck with the job.
Regards,
Mick.
Ans as for poking fun? this is pistonheads!
Anyway will keep you posted
MOTORVATOR said:
You two and your old technology.
I'm having a tactical laser system from BAE fitted to the passarelle as we speak.
Should improve the fishing catch tenfold and be a handy tool for fending off unwanted interest in my cocktail cabinets.
Just got to sort the budget guarantees now, should be alright they seem a fairly good company to work with
Typical attitude of rich boys and toys MOTORVATOR I'm having a tactical laser system from BAE fitted to the passarelle as we speak.
Should improve the fishing catch tenfold and be a handy tool for fending off unwanted interest in my cocktail cabinets.
Just got to sort the budget guarantees now, should be alright they seem a fairly good company to work with
I am more of a traditionalist, where is the fun in using laser guided weapons in sport? , you should have been a Yank Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff