Bomber Command fliers in their own words
Discussion
Hugo a Gogo said:
Simpo Two said:
I'd like to see the apologists who keep trotting out the tired and now rather boring Dresden story try to conduct an all-out war and see how they get on.
it must be dreadful for you, having to listen to that tired and boring stuff about people getting killed, rather like those dull old holocaust tales and that boring stuff about the PoW camps in the Far Eastthe point is, obviously, that 'all out war' against civilians is a war crime, by our own definitions
rhinochopig said:
I think the difference is that at the point in time those fighting - on all sides - were of the opinion that it was a fight for survival rather than a war to be fought within a strict legal framework. The prism of hindsight will always show the history of war in a pretty unpleasant manner.
Anyone who says we shouldn't have done it should ask themselves this question - if the situation was reversed, would the Axis powers have had any compunction about doing exactly the same thing?davepoth said:
Anyone who says we shouldn't have done it should ask themselves this question - if the situation was reversed, would the Axis powers have had any compunction about doing exactly the same thing?
no they wouldn't - but should we let the nazi regime be our moral guide?anyway, that's enough
Some quotes from people doing this kind of 'work' are often staggering and I think real life, unaltered, quotes are far more brutal than ones that have been adjusted for better publicity.
One of my friends is currently a combat pilot of 'fast jets' for the RAF.
A direct word for word quote from him recently "I drop bombs on people's children for a living and I don't care, it doesn't bother me".
I suppose if you were doing that then you would pretty much have to think like that, but people like the BBC usually s
t themselves at quotes like that.
One of my friends is currently a combat pilot of 'fast jets' for the RAF.
A direct word for word quote from him recently "I drop bombs on people's children for a living and I don't care, it doesn't bother me".
I suppose if you were doing that then you would pretty much have to think like that, but people like the BBC usually s
t themselves at quotes like that.Hugo a Gogo said:
Don't you see any hypocrisy in going on about 'our brave boys, doing a dirty job because they were ordered to, they didn't choose to' whilst berating the evil Hun for doing the same with exactly the same comfortable hindsight
No not really. You are conveniently omitting the fact that the Germans started the war. The Germans bombed the UK first. Your stance effectively criticises the country for defending itself in the only way open to it. Sitting back and doing nothing was not an option. The German war machine could only get stronger if that approach had been adopted. Stories of Nazi attrocities were already filtering out of the low countries early in the war. Just ask the Dutch what your friendly local Nazi occupier is capable of, even if you're not Jewish.
Hugo a Gogo said:
a lot of wartime civilians would have expressed similar sentiments to your cleaning lady about the people bombing them, whichever country they lived in
Perhaps, but the German lady would have been muttering her complaints whilst knowing that her country's leaders and her fellow countrymen had brought the whirlwind to her by their actions, whereas the British lady would simply want to curse those who started it all - the GERMANS!1939-1945 is not 2012.
Back then a despicable regime was trying to enslave a whole continent. It was trying to exterminate a whole section of those people.
There were no 'smart' bombs, no laser guidance.
It was TOTAL war. Not based on 'dodgy dossiers' or gaining Political capital. It was a fight for our very existence. Any criticism of these brave men or accusations of 'war crimes' is a disgrace. They expected to die, but flew on anyway. There is nothing braver.
Back then a despicable regime was trying to enslave a whole continent. It was trying to exterminate a whole section of those people.
There were no 'smart' bombs, no laser guidance.
It was TOTAL war. Not based on 'dodgy dossiers' or gaining Political capital. It was a fight for our very existence. Any criticism of these brave men or accusations of 'war crimes' is a disgrace. They expected to die, but flew on anyway. There is nothing braver.
and to the brave souls of bomber command, may I thank you sincerely for your courage in the face of terrible losses. Those that would rewrite history or who would seek to review events with the precision of hindsight and the subtle insinuations of quasi moral assumptions should hang their heads in shame.
Eric Mc said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
Eric Mc said:
Thank goodness for that.
give it a rest, you posted plenty of off-topic stuff, ranting about 'hatred'Inappropriate debate on today of all days is.
do you want to point that out yet?
andymadmak said:
and to the brave souls of bomber command, may I thank you sincerely for your courage in the face of terrible losses. Those that would rewrite history or who would seek to review events with the precision of hindsight and the subtle insinuations of quasi moral assumptions should hang their heads in shame.
yet the precision of hindsight should be applied to brainwashed German youth? conscripted and told what to do, where to fly and who to bomb, just like 'our lads'there's no doubt at all the the Nazis were evil and had to be stopped, thankfully they were - but no-one picked sides, weighed up the evidence and decided who to fight for - aside from those in occupied countries or other 'uninvolved' volunteers - including many brave Irishmen who were treated very badly afterwards
Eric Mc said:
Go away and spout your bile on a different thread please.
I'm willing to debate the ethics of all out war on a different thread - not this one.
You've turned what should have been a tribute into a squallid argument that has no place here.
that is bang out of order, I'm willing to debate the ethics of all out war on a different thread - not this one.
You've turned what should have been a tribute into a squallid argument that has no place here.
where is this bile - hatred - opprobrium
I have not expressed one bit of that and it's bloody insulting
Bedazzled said:
The OP linked to an article containing quotes from aircrew, some of them reticent about that they did, others less so. Does that not invite a discussion about the ethics?
That's what I thought too. The second post even condemns "apologists" and starts the debate about Dresden. It's hardly a tribute thread.Hugo a Gogo said:
that is bang out of order,
where is this bile - hatred - opprobrium
I have not expressed one bit of that and it's bloody insulting
You say you are not chastising anyone, yet are chastising the actions of Bomber Command. where is this bile - hatred - opprobrium
I have not expressed one bit of that and it's bloody insulting
You charge the veterans with war crimes but don't have the balls to say they should be locked up for same.
You have been unable to suggest a better course of action to bring the war to an end as soon as possible.
Hugo a Gogo said:
I'm simply saying by the Allies own standards pre-war, as in the Hague treaties, indiscriminate area bombing of cities was wrong, illegal even
And if it was? What are you going to do about it, other than wring your hands and say how bad we were? Does it give you some kind of perverse satisfaction? It's easy to make rules in peacetime, but when the shooting starts one realises that actually you have to break some, or lose. You haven't realised this.
Hugo a Gogo said:
Don't you see any hypocrisy in going on about 'our brave boys, doing a dirty job because they were ordered to, they didn't choose to' whilst berating the evil Hun for doing the same with exactly the same comfortable hindsight
Quite true, the Germans civilians felt exactly the same as British civilians. We also thought German morale would crack despite the fact that the Blitz had toughened our own resolve (a similar mental aberration to the conviction that whilst you can read enemy codes, yours are uncrackable). The main difference, of course, is that 'they started it'. But in total war you cannot treat both sides equally. One side is yours, and that side must win, and you do whatever you can to win, and the more desperate the conflict, the more desperate you will get and the more 'rules' you will break. It's survival instinct but with weapons.
You have, with a great deal of effort, built up a striking force of 1,000 heavy bombers. There is a very unpleasant war in Europe that needs to be ended as quickly as possible. I ask again: what are you going to do, Air Marshal Gogo? (wringing hands is not an option). You have no hindsight, no clear picture of what is going on, or what the enemy is planning, only the past four years of bitter conflict to go by. The 1,000 heavies that you wish you'd had a few years before are now there and ready to go. And Stalin is demanding that you bomb Dresden to make it easier for his troops to advance, and you need him on side because you cannot win the war without him.
But let us not be over-awed by Dresden or a few other major raids which so upset the postwar bleaters of uncertain motive. Let us also remember the conflict in full perspective, from the suicidal missions of Battles and Blenheims and Wellingtons in 1939/40, and Bomber Command's role in its entirety.
I would conclude with this. If you are in doubt as to which side is right, it is your own side. To denigrate your own side is inexcusable. But that is what democracy allows you to do, and Bomber Command and all the other fighting forces bought you the democracy that you now use to such pointlessness.
ETA Sorry Eric
Edited by Simpo Two on Thursday 28th June 19:09
I'm not usually given to quoting verse but on this occasion:
LIE IN THE DARK AND LISTEN
by
Noel Coward
Lie in the dark and listen,
It's clear tonight so they're flying high
Hundreds of them, thousands perhaps,
Riding the icy, moonlight sky.
Men, materials, bombs and maps
Altimeters and guns and charts
Coffee, sandwiches, fleece-lined boots
Bones and muscles and minds and hearts
English saplings with English roots
Deep in the earth they've left below
Lie in the dark and let them go
Lie in the dark and listen.
Lie in the dark and listen
They're going over in waves and waves
High above villages, hills and streams
Country churches and little graves
And little citizen's worried dreams.
Very soon they'll have reached the sea
And far below them will lie the bays
And coves and sands where they used to be
Taken for summer holidays.
Lie in the dark and let them go
Lie in the dark and listen.
Lie in the dark and listen
City magnates and steel contractors,
Factory workers and politicians
Soft hysterical little actors Ballet dancers,
'reserved' musicians,
Safe in your warm civilian beds
Count your profits and count your sheep
Life is flying above your heads
Just turn over and try to sleep.
Lie in the dark and let them go
Theirs is a world you'll never know
Lie in the dark and listen.
This memorial is the least we can do for those young men who suffered at the hands of the enemy, their own superiors and eventually, even the nation who they fought to save.
LIE IN THE DARK AND LISTEN
by
Noel Coward
Lie in the dark and listen,
It's clear tonight so they're flying high
Hundreds of them, thousands perhaps,
Riding the icy, moonlight sky.
Men, materials, bombs and maps
Altimeters and guns and charts
Coffee, sandwiches, fleece-lined boots
Bones and muscles and minds and hearts
English saplings with English roots
Deep in the earth they've left below
Lie in the dark and let them go
Lie in the dark and listen.
Lie in the dark and listen
They're going over in waves and waves
High above villages, hills and streams
Country churches and little graves
And little citizen's worried dreams.
Very soon they'll have reached the sea
And far below them will lie the bays
And coves and sands where they used to be
Taken for summer holidays.
Lie in the dark and let them go
Lie in the dark and listen.
Lie in the dark and listen
City magnates and steel contractors,
Factory workers and politicians
Soft hysterical little actors Ballet dancers,
'reserved' musicians,
Safe in your warm civilian beds
Count your profits and count your sheep
Life is flying above your heads
Just turn over and try to sleep.
Lie in the dark and let them go
Theirs is a world you'll never know
Lie in the dark and listen.
This memorial is the least we can do for those young men who suffered at the hands of the enemy, their own superiors and eventually, even the nation who they fought to save.
Elroy Blue said:
1939-1945 is not 2012.
Back then a despicable regime was trying to enslave a whole continent. It was trying to exterminate a whole section of those people.
There were no 'smart' bombs, no laser guidance.
It was TOTAL war. Not based on 'dodgy dossiers' or gaining Political capital. It was a fight for our very existence. Any criticism of these brave men or accusations of 'war crimes' is a disgrace. They expected to die, but flew on anyway. There is nothing braver.
^^^^This^^^^Back then a despicable regime was trying to enslave a whole continent. It was trying to exterminate a whole section of those people.
There were no 'smart' bombs, no laser guidance.
It was TOTAL war. Not based on 'dodgy dossiers' or gaining Political capital. It was a fight for our very existence. Any criticism of these brave men or accusations of 'war crimes' is a disgrace. They expected to die, but flew on anyway. There is nothing braver.
My grandfather was a Nav on Lancasters and my Nan was a nurse in and around London duriong the war, looking after solders and civilians alike. They were 21.....when I was 21 I was at uni having a laugh and getting tanked-up, no cares in the world. It is totally wrong of us 'younger' generation to critise and be-little what our war hero's did. Without their efforts it is highly likely we would not be having such open debates as we do on these forums, and would all be speaking German.
After 6 years of war actions were taken to try and finally end it, there were no smart bombs, fast jets or clinical strikes then, but heavy bombing, that was the war! The germans were happy to continue firing V1's & V2's even as the war drew to a close. Seeing the photo on this thread brings home what the people of this country went through, not through choice, but due to the actions of an aggresive foreign power at that time. We should not critise what they did. Lessons have been learnt and war has changed since those times, but it is not right for us to try and enforce modern PC views on a now elderly generation of very brave people.
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