Bothered about Business Class
Discussion
Crossflow Kid said:
There were only three classes on the (Virgin)747 I got on.
Economy, Premium Eco, and Upper.
Which to me is economy, business/club and first in plain English.
'course it's nothing to do with labelling things diffently to make it sound better than the opposition is it?
Anyway, whatever it's called, paying an extra 200 notes not to have someone else's elbow in my dinner, not having to play "bagsy the armrest" and jumping the queue of hen and stag nights waiting to board was money well spent for me.
Virgin Upper Class is not long haul major airline First Class standard; it's just business class standard. Not that I've flown it, but Virgin premium economy looks like the best PE on the market and is equivalent to regional business class on other airlines. Economy, Premium Eco, and Upper.
Which to me is economy, business/club and first in plain English.
'course it's nothing to do with labelling things diffently to make it sound better than the opposition is it?
Anyway, whatever it's called, paying an extra 200 notes not to have someone else's elbow in my dinner, not having to play "bagsy the armrest" and jumping the queue of hen and stag nights waiting to board was money well spent for me.
Edited by Crossflow Kid on Friday 8th February 22:00
So you could say that Virgin on their aircraft have:
- Economy
- A regional business class offering, which they call premium economy
- Full business class, called Upper Class.
Edited by creampuff on Saturday 9th February 08:03
WhereamI said:
I have to say I admire their marketing, they get people to pay premium prices for a decent, but unspectacular service. I've flown PE, I know what it's like and it is good, for a premium economy product. Expensive though, in idle curiosity I've just priced a forthcoming trip to Australia, £2,500 in Virgin PE, £4,500 in Upper Class and £2,880 in Etihad business. Etihad business is about as good as Virgin Upper and more times than not I get an upgrade to First so there's no doubt which I'll be choosing.
Try out EVA Air PE. Was only about 20% more expensive than regular econo when I last used it. But that was a few years, so who knows what the price premium is now. About baggage ( mentioned earlier). Cathay and Singapore are really tight with their biz baggage allowance: 30kg total. BA and Qantas give you 3 x 32kg = 96kg. I've actually shipped some furniture around using the regular BA baggage allowance.
And be nice everyone!
I'm just back from my annual business trip to India. I have been 6 times: all in business class. I dread the day when my boss tells me that the next journey will have to be in a lower class for cost reasons. I know you don't get there any quicker, but the positive frame of mind that it puts me in before and during the whole 11 day trip must be worth the extra cost. NB the only time I've flown Business within Europe, was a connecting flight for a long-haul business flight: I imagine that many of these passengers are booked on connecting long-haul flights.
creampuff said:
Virgin Upper Class is not long haul major airline First Class standard; it's just business class standard. Not that I've flown it, but Virgin premium economy looks like the best PE on the market and is equivalent to regional business class on other airlines.
So you could say that Virgin on their aircraft have:
- Economy
- A regional business class offering, which they call premium economy
- Full business class, called Upper Class.
Ooooh, you can't say that. You'll upset all the real business class flyers who are personally greeted on board an Etihad flight by the captain.So you could say that Virgin on their aircraft have:
- Economy
- A regional business class offering, which they call premium economy
- Full business class, called Upper Class.
Edited by creampuff on Saturday 9th February 08:03
And you just don't get that with Virgin and even if you did "they" would still tell you you're wrong.
Maybe I'm just a bit old fashioned and remember when it was BOAC, Caledonian and TWA.
There were three classes...economy, business and first.
And that was that.
The bit I find ironic is that I'm the one being accused of falling for clever marketing, whilst everyone else is believing the first offered by one operator is more firstish than the first offered by another airline where first is just premium club. Or something.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 9th February 09:18
Crossflow Kid said:
The bit I find ironic is that I'm the one being accused of falling for clever marketing, whilst everyone else is believing the first offered by one operator is more firstish than the first offered by another airline where first is just premium club. Or something.
You are simply saying 'words mean whatever I want them to mean'.Economy is economy, BA's Long Haul economy is also referred to as World Traveller. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
Premium economy is premium economy, BA's premium economy is also referred to as World Traveller plus. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
Business is business, BA's business is also referred to as club, Virgin's as Upper class. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
Crossflow Kid said:
Stuff
You really do have a strange attitude to this, to those who fly long haul a lot this isn't about status, it's about value for money and getting to the other end in a fit state to do what you went to do. If you think that PE is a good product that suits you then that is fine, but arguing that it's as good as business is like trying to say that a Focus is as good as a 5 series. To you it might be, but few who have tried both will agree with you.ClaphamGT3 said:
Imagine this; someone says to you that, if you sit in a comfortable, ergonomically designed, partially reclining chair for 9 hours, they'll pay you £3000.
If economy seats were genuinely comfortable and it really cost £3000 to upgrade to business you would have a point.For most of us economy seats are positively painful, and it's usually possible to travel in comfort for a far smaller premium.
The last time I went to NY BA business class both ways + 4 nights in a hotel cost about £2000 in total.
The time before that the air fare was indeed around to £3000, but that was Concorde one way and business the other.
And I used the air miles I earned on those 2 trips to upgrade a trip to LAX to business class.
I remember coming back from Rome once thinking economy would be fine for such a short trip. The woman beside me was so large she overflowed the armrest and I spent the whole flight, plus an hour delay on the ground, jammed against the cabin wall. A meal was provided but I literally didn't have room to eat it.
The next trip I arrived at Heathrow to find the terminal heaving, vast queues to all the check in desks and to security. But I had a business class ticket.
So I went to a separate area with no queues and was in the club lounge in five minutes. Then on the flight there was an empty seat beside me. All for an extra £50.
But if some people prefer to travel in discomfort to prove some kind of point, each to their own.
Dr Jekyll said:
You are simply saying 'words mean whatever I want them to mean'.
Economy is economy, BA's Long Haul economy is also referred to as World Traveller. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
Premium economy is premium economy, BA's premium economy is also referred to as World Traveller plus. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
Business is business, BA's business is also referred to as club, Virgin's as Upper class. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
I think PE, like full business class, is not the same regardless of airline. Not all charge the same price, they vary in standard. The BA PE actually looks a bit crap and not worth the price premium charged. Economy is economy, BA's Long Haul economy is also referred to as World Traveller. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
Premium economy is premium economy, BA's premium economy is also referred to as World Traveller plus. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
Business is business, BA's business is also referred to as club, Virgin's as Upper class. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
For biz class, Lufthansa do not have 180 degree flatbeds in longhaul biz. BA/ Cathay etc do. Both call it business class, but the BA/Cathay product is superior. If you want, you can fly London-NYC return for only £1000 on Kuwait Air (direct) or Iceland Air. This is half the price of BA/ Virgin. All are biz class. They may even have the same J/C fare booking class: they are not all equal.
Edited by creampuff on Saturday 9th February 10:03
Crossflow Kid said:
"Clubhouse" no, but you said lounge, so yes.
28kgs of baggage. At no extra charge.
Priority s'curity. Yes.
Priority boarding, yup.
Dunno if the food was the same as Upper, never said it was, just that it was on real plates'n'stuff.
I think you're just getting confused by the terms now. Lounge access....hmmm.28kgs of baggage. At no extra charge.
Priority s'curity. Yes.
Priority boarding, yup.
Dunno if the food was the same as Upper, never said it was, just that it was on real plates'n'stuff.
You do get more baggage allowance on Virgin PE than Economy - it's 1 x 23Kg in Economy and 2 x 23Kg in PE. I suppose that might be handy coming back the US if you did loads of shopping. On very long haul (Australia etc) I think it's 3 x 23Kg.
You probably had a separate channel for check-in, but not at the airport security.
The food was exactly the same as economy when I flew PE last year. I've seen suggestions they might be changing it though.
I paid £150 to fly back PE from Orlando last year and so felt I'd been ripped off that I went to the trouble of writing to Virgin Atlantic. They never bothered to reply so I posted on their FaceBook page and then they responded within a couple of hours - so there's a lesson.
Deva Link said:
I paid £150 to fly back PE from Orlando last year and so felt I'd been ripped off that I went to the trouble of writing to Virgin Atlantic. They never bothered to reply so I posted on their FaceBook page and then they responded within a couple of hours - so there's a lesson.
What didn't you like about it? From what I've seen of Virgin PE, a £150 premium would be ok. creampuff said:
What didn't you like about it? From what I've seen of Virgin PE, a £150 premium would be ok.
It was on one of their new A330's and there were 3 of us (so to be fair, it felt like I'd paid £450, because I had) and we chose the centre 3 seats.What Virgin doesn't tell you is that the centre seats in PE on the A330 have no air vents above them as there is no centre row of overhead lockers. The cabin was almost unbearably hot and having leather seats made it worse. The staff (who were snappy with everyone throughout the flight - I think there something going on) insisted it wasn't hot even though the cabin management screens were showing 29C (and it felt hotter than that). I was told I shouldn't be looking at those screens.
The food choice was veggie or non-veggie. No 3rd option and they wouldn't check if there was an alternative economy meal available (food is the same, just the packaging is different). Drinks service and entertainment systems are the same in both cabins.
We'd flown out in Economy (on the same plane) and it was absolutely fine.
I think the issue with Virgin PE is it tries to pretend it's something that it isn't (although based on Crossflow Kids's post, that seems to work on some people). United's approach is more honest - you get more legroom and that's it.
Deva Link said:
I paid £150 to fly back PE from Orlando last year and so felt I'd been ripped off that I went to the trouble of writing to Virgin Atlantic. They never bothered to reply so I posted on their FaceBook page and then they responded within a couple of hours - so there's a lesson.
What was the reply?whoami said:
What was the reply?
Very sorry you couldn't sleep, blah, blah blah. Said they'd discuss with the engineering teams why there aren't air vents. (I know why, it's because the cabin was supposed to be for Upper with individual seats, but they wouldn't fit, so they made it PE instead.) I do think this should be pointed out to people booking those seats.I was most annoyed by the cabin services manager's rudeness and they picked that up and said the cabin crew performance manager would look into it.
WhereamI said:
Crossflow Kid said:
Stuff
You really do have a strange attitude to this, to those who fly long haul a lot this isn't about status, it's about value for money and getting to the other end in a fit state to do what you went to do. If you think that PE is a good product that suits you then that is fine, but arguing that it's as good as business is like trying to say that a Focus is as good as a 5 series. To you it might be, but few who have tried both will agree with you.It then descended in to some sort of pissing contest about who's flown proper business class or not, hence I stopped taking it seriously.
Deva Link said:
Crossflow Kid said:
"Clubhouse" no, but you said lounge, so yes.
28kgs of baggage. At no extra charge.
Priority s'curity. Yes.
Priority boarding, yup.
Dunno if the food was the same as Upper, never said it was, just that it was on real plates'n'stuff.
I think you're just getting confused by the terms now. Lounge access....hmmm.28kgs of baggage. At no extra charge.
Priority s'curity. Yes.
Priority boarding, yup.
Dunno if the food was the same as Upper, never said it was, just that it was on real plates'n'stuff.
You do get more baggage allowance on Virgin PE than Economy - it's 1 x 23Kg in Economy and 2 x 23Kg in PE. I suppose that might be handy coming back the US if you did loads of shopping. On very long haul (Australia etc) I think it's 3 x 23Kg.
You probably had a separate channel for check-in, but not at the security.
Look, either way, I paid a bit more to go in a seat that was a bit bigger, with food which was a bit better, which is kinda what I thought the OP was on about.
Obviously I got it wrong and the point of the post for was for the assembled long haul real business types to spout off about what real business class feels like.
Sorry - won't do it again.
Edited because autocorrect turned "maybe" in to a slightly worrying "Mugabe"
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 9th February 16:05
Crossflow Kid said:
Here we go again. Yes, we did. Maybe it was their oversight, or they weren't busy or just didn't care/notice.
FWIW, the airline don't operate the dedicated security channel, the airport do. When the car arrives at the Virgin Upper drop off point to the side of the terminal they check you in whilst you are still sat in the car and then you walk straight through their entry lounge through an arch and you find yourself at the far end of the security hall in a dedicated lane with its own scanner.
As others have said - Premium Economy really is just Premium Economy it's not Business Class, but I suspect you know that and are just trolling for amusement now.
I get irritated by this stuff because a few years ago I fell foul of it. A company we worked with in Australia went into administration, I needed to get there quickly and I was offered a seat flying PE with Virgin, I was told that Upper was like first class and PE was as good as business. Since the flight was that day and that was what I needed I went for it.
It was nothing like business with the result that I got to Australia having had no meaningful sleep for about 36 hours and I spent the next week like a zombie while trying to negotiate with an Australian administrator who was intent on selling everything to his cousin, or so it seemed.
So this stuff does matter to some of us, if you only fly once or twice a year it's no big deal, but if you do the sort of trips where you are doing, say, ten flights in a three week period with meetings at the various stops on the way (I'm in the middle of a trip like that right now, about to get on another plane in four hours time), then the quality of the airline service really matters. Being able to get to the airport an hour later saves me ten hours, being able to sleep saves me days - it matters.
It was nothing like business with the result that I got to Australia having had no meaningful sleep for about 36 hours and I spent the next week like a zombie while trying to negotiate with an Australian administrator who was intent on selling everything to his cousin, or so it seemed.
So this stuff does matter to some of us, if you only fly once or twice a year it's no big deal, but if you do the sort of trips where you are doing, say, ten flights in a three week period with meetings at the various stops on the way (I'm in the middle of a trip like that right now, about to get on another plane in four hours time), then the quality of the airline service really matters. Being able to get to the airport an hour later saves me ten hours, being able to sleep saves me days - it matters.
WhereamI said:
I get irritated by this stuff because a few years ago I fell foul of it. A company we worked with in Australia went into administration, I needed to get there quickly and I was offered a seat flying PE with Virgin, I was told that Upper was like first class and PE was as good as business. Since the flight was that day and that was what I needed I went for it.
It was nothing like business with the result that I got to Australia having had no meaningful sleep for about 36 hours and I spent the next week like a zombie while trying to negotiate with an Australian administrator who was intent on selling everything to his cousin, or so it seemed.
So this stuff does matter to some of us, if you only fly once or twice a year it's no big deal, but if you do the sort of trips where you are doing, say, ten flights in a three week period with meetings at the various stops on the way (I'm in the middle of a trip like that right now, about to get on another plane in four hours time), then the quality of the airline service really matters. Being able to get to the airport an hour later saves me ten hours, being able to sleep saves me days - it matters.
Did the suspiciously cheap price not ring any alarm bells?It was nothing like business with the result that I got to Australia having had no meaningful sleep for about 36 hours and I spent the next week like a zombie while trying to negotiate with an Australian administrator who was intent on selling everything to his cousin, or so it seemed.
So this stuff does matter to some of us, if you only fly once or twice a year it's no big deal, but if you do the sort of trips where you are doing, say, ten flights in a three week period with meetings at the various stops on the way (I'm in the middle of a trip like that right now, about to get on another plane in four hours time), then the quality of the airline service really matters. Being able to get to the airport an hour later saves me ten hours, being able to sleep saves me days - it matters.
custodian said:
whoami said:
Did the suspiciously cheap price not ring any alarm bells?
I suggest you read again the reasons the seats were unsatisfactory. His complaints seem reasonable to me.
I'll try again.
Did the comparatively low price not make you think that this might not actually be Business Class that you were buying?
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