Ask a helicopter pilot anything
Discussion
Siko said:
it does happen. There was a navy jet pilot on the course behind me going through helicopter training, obviously the only jet the navy had at the time was the Sea Harrier which is a demanding aircraft to fly. She had got through and passed Valley advanced jet training but had only got a twin seat recommend (ie Tornado only), so despite passing the course was sent to convert to helicopters instead. While she was going through helicopter training she applied to the RAF and transferred across, I have a feeling she got chopped on the Tornado OCU as I heard she didn't make it in the end. As a general point there was a lot of movement around between the services and there were quite a few ex-Army/Navy on the various Squadrons I was on over the years.
Another really interesting meander in the discussion. This thread really is top value.A chap I know who flew Hercs only ended up doing so after getting a good chunk of the way through fast jet training (up to flying the Hawk, I believe). We've not been in touch for a while but the last I heard he had a pretty decent commercial gig having stayed in until 40ish I think so clearly worked out alright for him in the end.
In your experience does that sort of thing tend to happen more on the basis of safety and ability or is it mostly the service need(/illogical bureaucracy)? I assume the flying ramps up in intensity pretty rapidly during training and if someone's capacity is being overstretched to the extent that they're at risk of flying into a mountain or power line then it does nobody any favours to keep them on...
NowWatchThisDrive said:
Another really interesting meander in the discussion. This thread really is top value.
A chap I know who flew Hercs only ended up doing so after getting a good chunk of the way through fast jet training (up to flying the Hawk, I believe). We've not been in touch for a while but the last I heard he had a pretty decent commercial gig having stayed in until 40ish I think so clearly worked out alright for him in the end.
In your experience does that sort of thing tend to happen more on the basis of safety and ability or is it mostly the service need(/illogical bureaucracy)? I assume the flying ramps up in intensity pretty rapidly during training and if someone's capacity is being overstretched to the extent that they're at risk of flying into a mountain or power line then it does nobody any favours to keep them on...
Thanks mate! To answer your question it's a bit of both - as I mentioned a few pages back about my Test Pilot chum who was doing fine on his Hawk course and then found himself sent to fly Helicopters as the seats were no longer available in the jet world, it does happen. There was a big cull throughout the RAF training world not long before I left, maybe 2010-11 or so when the RAF decided they didn't need anywhere near as many pilots as they had going through training. It was awful and I feel for all the pilots who were pulled off courses and told they were no longer going to fly....A chap I know who flew Hercs only ended up doing so after getting a good chunk of the way through fast jet training (up to flying the Hawk, I believe). We've not been in touch for a while but the last I heard he had a pretty decent commercial gig having stayed in until 40ish I think so clearly worked out alright for him in the end.
In your experience does that sort of thing tend to happen more on the basis of safety and ability or is it mostly the service need(/illogical bureaucracy)? I assume the flying ramps up in intensity pretty rapidly during training and if someone's capacity is being overstretched to the extent that they're at risk of flying into a mountain or power line then it does nobody any favours to keep them on...
As to why pilots don't make it through training, sometimes pilots just aren't cutting it from the word go or they get to an applied stage and struggle. It definitely gets harder the further through you get and you find you are just loaded up more and more the closer you get to the end. It does tend to be safety stuff that people fail things for though (I've failed flights myself - it's fairly routine for military flying training
) as sometimes pilots are concentrating so much on flying the aircraft they miss the other aircraft in the circuit and the instructor has to intervene or take control. From my experience as an instructor if I had to take control on a regular flight it was usually just part of the learning experience for the trainee and as long as they learned/it wasn't too bad you just moved on. if it was a checkride then taking control for a safety issue was pretty much a mandatory fail as they were meant to be competent in what you were assessing them on and at least safe.If a student failed a flight they ended up in a system known as "Air Warning". Fail one flight you usually got a couple of extra flights and a refly of the trip failed on Air Warning 1 (AW1), if you failed the refly or a similar sortie you would probably go to AW2 and get a couple more trips and a refly. If you failed another refly or a similar type of flight you would go to AW3 which usually involved a board assessing their progress and either awarding more training flights (unusual) or going straight to a checkride with a senior instructor. If they failed the checkride they were off the course and dependent which part of training they failed would lead to their fate, either rerole to another type or leave flying completely.
magpie215 said:
RedHouse said:
An excellent and fascinating thread, thank you all.
On a slightly different tack from the main contributions;-
some years ago I visited a Military Helicopter training base in the West Country to do some work on a simulation device.
In the early evening I stepped outside and spotted a small helicopter parked up in the sky. Not moving, just stationary.
It stayed there for quite a few minutes, then did a back somersault, fell to the ground at an alarming rate and did a very long pull up.
Back inside, the instructor said that it would be a display pilot; the long pause was for the chap to check for anything loose, run a serious scan of the instruments, prep the engines, buckle up tight, have a brief conversation with the deity of his choice and then 'stir the cyclic'.
I've heard of helicopters doing a loop with forward speed, but never heard of a stationary back somersault before. When quizzed, the instructor went quiet and walked off in search of tea.
So here's the question;
In this flip - plummet - swoop manoeuvre, what can possibly go wrong?
Probably a LynxOn a slightly different tack from the main contributions;-
some years ago I visited a Military Helicopter training base in the West Country to do some work on a simulation device.
In the early evening I stepped outside and spotted a small helicopter parked up in the sky. Not moving, just stationary.
It stayed there for quite a few minutes, then did a back somersault, fell to the ground at an alarming rate and did a very long pull up.
Back inside, the instructor said that it would be a display pilot; the long pause was for the chap to check for anything loose, run a serious scan of the instruments, prep the engines, buckle up tight, have a brief conversation with the deity of his choice and then 'stir the cyclic'.
I've heard of helicopters doing a loop with forward speed, but never heard of a stationary back somersault before. When quizzed, the instructor went quiet and walked off in search of tea.
So here's the question;
In this flip - plummet - swoop manoeuvre, what can possibly go wrong?
https://youtu.be/ceOpnujmm7Y
Another great thread!
I have a question regarding emergency landings, I was just out walking my dog when a helicopter came over and looked like it was about to land in the field I was in. However the helicopter then changed attitude and moved on to the field next to me and proceeded to land.
So my question is, if you're coming in to land in an area but spot someone on the ground do you have to move on to the next safe space assuming there is one within reach?
I have a question regarding emergency landings, I was just out walking my dog when a helicopter came over and looked like it was about to land in the field I was in. However the helicopter then changed attitude and moved on to the field next to me and proceeded to land.
So my question is, if you're coming in to land in an area but spot someone on the ground do you have to move on to the next safe space assuming there is one within reach?
My brother, who currently flies an R44 for his job, told me a few years ago he had a sudden 75% loss in power at 600ft, so he put it down in the field below. Rather sharpish. But fortunately not an auto rotate jobbie.
He then walked 30 mins to the 2 nearest farms to work out who owned the field, let the farmer know, and rang his boss to explain where the bird currently was.
Then he had a 3 hour train journey home.
Exciting times
He then walked 30 mins to the 2 nearest farms to work out who owned the field, let the farmer know, and rang his boss to explain where the bird currently was.
Then he had a 3 hour train journey home.
Exciting times
pete_esp said:
Another great thread!
I have a question regarding emergency landings, I was just out walking my dog when a helicopter came over and looked like it was about to land in the field I was in. However the helicopter then changed attitude and moved on to the field next to me and proceeded to land.
So my question is, if you're coming in to land in an area but spot someone on the ground do you have to move on to the next safe space assuming there is one within reach?
Thanks Pete! To be honest no, but it sounds like the pilot was exercising good airmanship to go elsewhere. Obviously if it was a real autorotation then you would have to plonk her down anywhere safe and would almost certainly not be able to choose another field (unless you saw an obstacle/people at a good distance away).I have a question regarding emergency landings, I was just out walking my dog when a helicopter came over and looked like it was about to land in the field I was in. However the helicopter then changed attitude and moved on to the field next to me and proceeded to land.
So my question is, if you're coming in to land in an area but spot someone on the ground do you have to move on to the next safe space assuming there is one within reach?
Autorotating a helicopter (landing without engines) is a fairly stressful experience in anything other than a small and light-ish helicopter. In my current one you are going down like the proverbial ton of bricks and pretty much limited to going somewhere under your nose.
If you are carrying out a precautionary landing (eg you have a warning light illuminated) then dependent on what is potentially going wrong would dictate how much flexibility you have to move elsewhere if pedestrians are on your original landing location.
The_Doc said:
My brother, who currently flies an R44 for his job, told me a few years ago he had a sudden 75% loss in power at 600ft, so he put it down in the field below. Rather sharpish. But fortunately not an auto rotate jobbie.
He then walked 30 mins to the 2 nearest farms to work out who owned the field, let the farmer know, and rang his boss to explain where the bird currently was.
Then he had a 3 hour train journey home.
Exciting times
Bloody hell - great job by your bro! That is no easy job landing with only 25% power, sounds like he did very well there. In my military career I’ve had numerous precautionary landings (normally bird strikes or a chip light). People are normally very interested in the helicopter and you almost always ended up showing the farmers kids around the cockpit….was in general really nice way to spend some time and having a brew in the sun with a nice old dear next to your mighty steed was kind of cool too He then walked 30 mins to the 2 nearest farms to work out who owned the field, let the farmer know, and rang his boss to explain where the bird currently was.
Then he had a 3 hour train journey home.
Exciting times
Avenicus said:
Do you ever do anything to scare annoying passengers?
Definitely not in the civilian world! 
To be fair the passengers are really good and never any bother at all. When I was a military pilot we did get asked to”throw it about a bit” if it was non-hostile as it was somebody or others birthday/loved flying. In the Puma you could do some fun non-helicopter type things I’d probably better not go into here, but when the troops got off there would always be, without fail, one poor b*ger who was pale and didn’t look entirely happy
Siko said:
Avenicus said:
Do you ever do anything to scare annoying passengers?
Definitely not in the civilian world! To be fair the passengers are really good and never any bother at all. When I was a military pilot we did get asked to”throw it about a bit” if it was non-hostile as it was somebody or others birthday/loved flying. In the Puma you could do some fun non-helicopter type things I’d probably better not go into here, but when the troops got off there would always be, without fail, one poor b*ger who was pale and didn’t look entirely happy
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
Apologies for being a bit cryptic, but as you're an ex Puma pilot and you seem the right age... have you ever met John Cleland?
Nope sorry, most of the time I was on them there were 3 big(ish) squadrons so unlikely you’d know everyone but name definitely doesn’t ring a bell.Siko said:
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
Apologies for being a bit cryptic, but as you're an ex Puma pilot and you seem the right age... have you ever met John Cleland?
Nope sorry, most of the time I was on them there were 3 big(ish) squadrons so unlikely you’d know everyone but name definitely doesn’t ring a bell.Epic puma jolly...
A friend was involved with setting it up.
The Road Crew said:
Did you know the crew of 934?
Not at all - I had left the Puma force by the time that crew came into it. Funnily enough I do have a connection to them though. For anyone who doesn’t know what happened there was a horrible fatal accident to Puma ZA934 on 8 Aug 2007 with several fatalities:https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Just checked my logbook and ZA934 was my last Puma flight before I transferred to the Merlin (I returned to Puma in 2010). Last flight for me in ZA934 was Jul 28 2002 when we were called out to an incident in Belfast.
My connection to ZA934 and the accident was because I was one of the few Puma pilots who didn’t know any of the crew, when I was flying it back again in 2010. The service inquiry (or coroners inquest) was taking place and I was asked to show them the profile the crew flew in the flight simulator. I was shown it and it was a real mind fck to fly an exact profile that led to a fatal crash when every sinew of your flying experience is screaming at you not to do it. Took me 2 hours of practice to replicate it but in the end I was not asked to show demonstrate it to anyone.
Siko said:
The Road Crew said:
Did you know the crew of 934?
Not at all - I had left the Puma force by the time that crew came into it. Funnily enough I do have a connection to them though. For anyone who doesn’t know what happened there was a horrible fatal accident to Puma ZA934 on 8 Aug 2007 with several fatalities:https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Just checked my logbook and ZA934 was my last Puma flight before I transferred to the Merlin (I returned to Puma in 2010). Last flight for me in ZA934 was Jul 28 2002 when we were called out to an incident in Belfast.
My connection to ZA934 and the accident was because I was one of the few Puma pilots who didn’t know any of the crew, when I was flying it back again in 2010. The service inquiry (or coroners inquest) was taking place and I was asked to show them the profile the crew flew in the flight simulator. I was shown it and it was a real mind fck to fly an exact profile that led to a fatal crash when every sinew of your flying experience is screaming at you not to do it. Took me 2 hours of practice to replicate it but in the end I was not asked to show demonstrate it to anyone.
The Road Crew said:
Siko said:
The Road Crew said:
Did you know the crew of 934?
Not at all - I had left the Puma force by the time that crew came into it. Funnily enough I do have a connection to them though. For anyone who doesn’t know what happened there was a horrible fatal accident to Puma ZA934 on 8 Aug 2007 with several fatalities:https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Just checked my logbook and ZA934 was my last Puma flight before I transferred to the Merlin (I returned to Puma in 2010). Last flight for me in ZA934 was Jul 28 2002 when we were called out to an incident in Belfast.
My connection to ZA934 and the accident was because I was one of the few Puma pilots who didn’t know any of the crew, when I was flying it back again in 2010. The service inquiry (or coroners inquest) was taking place and I was asked to show them the profile the crew flew in the flight simulator. I was shown it and it was a real mind fck to fly an exact profile that led to a fatal crash when every sinew of your flying experience is screaming at you not to do it. Took me 2 hours of practice to replicate it but in the end I was not asked to show demonstrate it to anyone.
t time on the Puma force, I'd been on if for a quite a long time when Catterick happened and had the joy of being formally interviewed by the police on 3 occasions as they investigated the deaths. Still being used on the tri-service flight safety and authorisation courses to this day.take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
Found a vid so no need to be cryptic...
Epic puma jolly...
A friend was involved with setting it up.
Great video! Thanks for sharing I’ve not seen that before, does bring back a few memories though. I know of both of those pilots but didn’t really overlap with them in NI or the mainland. Stopping a car is a lot more difficult than you think - if a driver is really going for it then it is very very difficult as you have to anticipate where they are going, somehow get well ahead of them, find a suitable field and manage to land/troops get out of the field in time to stop some nutter probably going not much slower than the helicopter! I stopped a car in Iraq once that must have been doing 100+ and it took bloody ages to get sufficient distance in front of him and only really managed it when he got to a slow S bend Epic puma jolly...
A friend was involved with setting it up.
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