Bomber Command fliers in their own words

[Eric Mc]

Nothing more to add. Fantastic endorsement chaps.

My little tribute will be the resurrection of a stalled project to build a 1/72 Whitley.

[Hugo a Gogo]

Simpo Two said:

You say you are not chastising anyone, yet are chastising the actions of Bomber Command.

You charge the veterans with war crimes but don't have the balls to say they should be locked up for same.

....

And if it was? What are you going to do about it, other than wring your hands and say how bad we were? Does it give you some kind of perverse satisfaction?

It's easy to make rules in peacetime, but when the shooting starts one realises that actually you have to break some, or lose. You haven't realised this.

no, you've got me all wrong - I'm saying that is what Britain (and the international community) agreed to before the war, that that sort of bombing was a war crime, then they ordered their own men to do it

that seems to be a reason why they were so unwilling to honour them in any way, it seems to me

that might also be a reason why those men have such feelings as they stated in the BBC article

I've never said this is my feeling or that I feel they should be punished

Hugo a Gogo said:

I'm simply saying by the Allies own standards pre-war, as in the Hague treaties, indiscriminate area bombing of cities was wrong, illegal even

Simpo Two said:

You have been unable to suggest a better course of action to bring the war to an end as soon as possible.

Erm, yeah, sorry about that, I'm not a military genius with a time machine



I have no idea what you are trying to say here

[db]

Hugo a Gogo said:

no, you've got me all wrong - I'm saying that is what Britain (and the international community) agreed to before the war, that that sort of bombing was a war crime, then they ordered their own men to do it....


I'm simply saying by the Allies own standards pre-war, as in the Hague treaties, indiscriminate area bombing of cities was wrong, illegal even

I'm sure that genocide was considered illegal before, and during, the war. Not bombing Germany the way the old boys did it wouldn't have prevented that. Carpet bombing did.
To not recognise the gents that flew in the face of horrendous odds is a disgrace. The memorial is a long overdue recognition of their sacrifice, and damn good looking too.

[Simpo Two]

We need to watch our terminology. Bombing civilians isn't actually genocide. What happened to the Jews was genocide.




It's a fine memorial; the sculptures look excellent.

[NightRunner]

Hugo a Gogo said:

Eric Mc said:

Go away and spout your bile on a different thread please.

I'm willing to debate the ethics of all out war on a different thread - not this one.

You've turned what should have been a tribute into a squallid argument that has no place here.

that is bang out of order,
where is this bile - hatred - opprobrium
I have not expressed one bit of that and it's bloody insulting

Hugo, there are 55,573 reasons why you are wrong with your postings on this thread.

They do not belong here on this thread.

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

Not before time.

Per Ardua Ad Astra...


For those no longer with us, and who were denied the sight of the Memorial, may you always have Blue Skies chaps.

Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Friday 29th June 01:00

[brenflys777]

I had a great Uncle who died as a tail end charlie on Lancs.

I feel we are better as a country for acknowledging the sacrifice Bomber Command crews made. They did not choose the fight, or the tactics and strategies, but they did risk their lives to protect their country. One of the greatest accomplishments of an allied victory was to set the stage for a more representative society and I am perfectly happy for opposing views to be aired. Instead of getting upset with people who disagree with the memorial, I think its better to engage and debate, but if that fails take comfort in the smug knowledge that the bomber boys helped provide the freedom to be idiots

RIP Sgt Arthur Heffernan

[db]

Simpo Two said:

We need to watch our terminology. Bombing civilians isn't actually genocide. What happened to the Jews was genocide.




It's a fine memorial; the sculptures look excellent.

Bomber Command did not commit genocide, they acted to prevent it. My apologies if my words suggested otherwise.
The boys that flew those missions hold my respect more than the fighter boys. A quite fitting memorial; well deserved and long overdue.

[jmorgan]

Been reading a few books recently on the subject. When I was a yoof, just out of school, my main interest was the usual pursuits for a just out of school with a bit of cash from your first job. It was not climbing into a thin metal tube to sit there for hours waiting to come back in one piece, or mainly in one piece, and wondering how it would end if you failed to return. Then have to do it again and again and knowing the odds were not good. Reading the aircrews experiences and many in their own words, or at least relayed by the author and indeed quite a few that committed to writing before they were killed, well......

Utmost respect.

[Hugo a Gogo]

NightRunner said:

Hugo, there are 55,573 reasons why you are wrong with your postings on this thread.

They do not belong here on this thread.

I have not made any disparaging comments about the men of bomber command, I have tried to give my thoughts on why the government didn't recognise them sooner, or why they felt some ambivalence themselves about what they did

that is what the thread started about

I've also tried to give some balance to the effect that the people on 'other side' were much the same

[dr_gn]

Hugo a Gogo said:

NightRunner said:

Hugo, there are 55,573 reasons why you are wrong with your postings on this thread.

They do not belong here on this thread.

I have not made any disparaging comments about the men of bomber command, I have tried to give my thoughts on why the government didn't recognise them sooner, or why they felt some ambivalence themselves about what they did

that is what the thread started about

I've also tried to give some balance to the effect that the people on 'other side' were much the same

You're wasting your time. Once someone writes that you've 'done wrong' others will invariably join in irrespective of what you actually wrote. Most reasonable people who read the whole thread will soon realise what's what so I wouldn't worry too much.

[andymadmak]

Hugo a Gogo said:

it must be dreadful for you, having to listen to that tired and boring stuff about people getting killed, rather like those dull old holocaust tales and that boring stuff about the PoW camps in the Far East

the point is, obviously, that 'all out war' against civilians is a war crime, by our own definitions

Hugo, I think this is the post that set the tone. It reads as though you are saying that bomber command crews committed war crimes. It appears to equate bomber command tactics with the Holocaust and the worst excesses of the Japanese PoW camps.
Now, perhaps what you meant is that, since we had defined war crimes as "X" before the war, then the bomber command actions were war crimes under definition "X". Technically that may or may not be correct. However, in the warm glow of peace time, all sorts of definitions can be made. I don't honestly think that the war planners of the 1920s and 1930s could have imagined the tactics and the utter barbarity that the Axis powers would deploy just a few years later.
The Germans and the Japanese effectively tore up the rule book. The Allies did not. Area bombing does not equate to rounding people up and sending them off to be gassed, nor does it equate to the torture and slaughter of prisoners of war. Area bombing represented the only tactic available to the UK and its allies if it was to take the war to the Nazis and slow down the growth in strength of the Axis war machine.
Even loosely comparing area bombing with the Holocaust of Japanese PoW camps is deeply insulting to the brave men of bomber command.

[Hugo a Gogo]

fair point

I thought it was quite insulting and dismissive to talk about the 'boring' story of Dresden

[eccles]

I just think it's sad that all the other sacrifices made by Bomber command crews are overshadowed by the Dresden 'issue'.
Spare a thought for the brave crews of the Battles and Blenheims that flew off to almost certain death during the daylight raids early in the war.
What about all the good that was done by the likes of 617 with their precision bombing of U boat pens, or the bombing of the V weapon launch sites.
Spare a thought for them.

[jmorgan]

Remember also, the venerable Lancaster was not the only aircraft.

[Eric Mc]

jmorgan said:

Remember also, the venerable Lancaster was not the only aircraft.

Quite -

Wellesley
Battle
Blenheim
Wellington
Hampden
Whitley
Stirling
Halifax
Warwick
B-17
Liberator

I'm sure there are more.

[rhinochopig]

Eric Mc said:

jmorgan said:

Remember also, the venerable Lancaster was not the only aircraft.

Quite -

Wellesley
Battle
Blenheim
Wellington
Hampden
Whitley
Stirling
Halifax
Warwick
B-17
Liberator

I'm sure there are more.

Mossie pathfinder squadron. Tut tut. Arguably one of the hardest jobs as well.

[Simpo Two]

Hugo a Gogo said:

fair point

I thought it was quite insulting and dismissive to talk about the 'boring' story of Dresden

It is boring now becaue it is trotted out time and time again for the compulsory arse-kicking exercise.

Not sure why you were insulted though - unless you had a relative killed there or are German yourself. If not, 'guilt by proxy' is half the reason this country is screwed.

[Eric Mc]

rhinochopig said:

Eric Mc said:

jmorgan said:

Remember also, the venerable Lancaster was not the only aircraft.

Quite -

Wellesley
Battle
Blenheim
Wellington
Hampden
Whitley
Stirling
Halifax
Warwick
B-17
Liberator

I'm sure there are more.

Mossie pathfinder squadron. Tut tut. Arguably one of the hardest jobs as well.

I said there were more. I know that the Pathfinders used P-51s near the end of the war and Bomber Command also used Bostons.

[Hugo a Gogo]

Simpo Two said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

fair point

I thought it was quite insulting and dismissive to talk about the 'boring' story of Dresden

It is boring now becaue it is trotted out time and time again for the compulsory arse-kicking exercise.

Not sure why you were insulted though - unless you had a relative killed there or are German yourself. If not, 'guilt by proxy' is half the reason this country is screwed.

it's insulting to them, other humans

I'm a human too