Airbus intercepted by Mirage 2000

[TVR1]

pushthebutton said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and...

To flip your argument on it's head, could the differing training that commercial pilots receive have prevented any of the above accidents from happening? I'd argue that it probably could have in a few cases. Does that mean that all military pilots should come from a civilian background and be more trusted as a result?

I'll leave that to you...

On this, I would certainly agree. In the same way that I would agree that civil aviation pilots are arguably better at CRM, in some circumstances. After all, that is a main part of their training (Euro/US/Australian pilots at least. (I await the flaming from the ex-mil this time ) one of the best books I have read on this subject is The Naked Pilot: Human factors in aircraft accidents. QF32 Was a perfect example of this. When they put those flight parameters into the sim, I believe the computers gave up?

We will agree on AF447 too, the pilots in the cockpit simply had no way of knowing what siuation they were in. Either before or after the FMS had given it up as 'too hard'. It appears that the aircraft was flying in alternate law and caught the pilots by surprise but who really knows? Perhaps one day we will find out. It seems to be the case that the only pilot who realised the true extent of the situation only just managed to get to the cockpit at the last minute and by then it was too late. That doesn't explain why both pilots insisted on practically trying to get the 'plane to do a loop the loop, with stall warnings screaming at them.

So at last we agree on something? Streangths and weaknesses in both types? I was simply arguing in favour of one of them.

Edited by TVR1 on Wednesday 8th June 18:12

[pushthebutton]

TVR1 said:

So at last we agree on something? Streangths and weaknesses in both types? I was simply arguing in favour of one of them.

Edited by TVR1 on Wednesday 8th June 18:12

...and that's where we disagree. If events occurred as they appear then the skills required by the pilots were not edge of the envelope upset recovery, but recognising and managing unreliable airspeed/altitude. To say that you would only fly with airlines that employ mainly ex-military pilots is both a gross generalisation and, for the reasons you gave, factually incorrect. It's not the background of the pilots that determines the safety of the airline.

[Slagathore]

What was the guy that landed the plane in the Hudson river, was he from a military background?

Do they train that in the military?

Tidy bit of piloting either way

[Urban Sports]

Why does what could have been quite a cool thread have to descend into the usual argumentative crap?

Anyway I really like that video, certainly enhanced by the Kings Of Leon

[pushthebutton]

Yep sorry. I bit, I'll stop now.

P

[TVR1]

Slagathore said:

What was the guy that landed the plane in the Hudson river, was he from a military background?

Do they train that in the military?

Tidy bit of piloting either way

Inconveniently...yes he was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesley_Sullenberger#...

[Slagathore]

TVR1 said:

Inconveniently...yes he was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesley_Sullenberger#...

Not inconvenient, interesting more like.

I wasn't getting involved in the argument of ex military v non military, I was genuinely curious.

From a layman's point of view, he seems to be a good pilot.

Do any types of training involve landing on water?

[Simpo Two]

Slagathore said:

Do any types of training involve landing on water?

I expect it can be in a simulator, but rather expensive to practice for real... (unless it's a seaplane/flying boat of course.)



Sullenberger - not only an ex-fighter pilot but an expert on air accidents it seems! I bagsy him for my next flight. "One way of looking at this might be that for 42 years, I've been making small, regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training. And on January 15 the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal."

Edited by Simpo Two on Wednesday 8th June 22:56

[pushthebutton]

It's not possible to train ditching in any of the simulators I've ever been in. I suppose if you wanted to you could run the scenario down to the touchdown point, but it wouldn't be possible to replicate the touchdown on water which is the part you'd want to practice.

[pushthebutton]

pushthebutton said:

It's not possible to train ditching in any of the simulators I've ever been in. I suppose if you wanted to you could run the scenario down to the touchdown point, but it wouldn't be possible to replicate the touchdown on water which is the part you'd want to practice.

ETA TVR1 BA038 blah blah blah...

[TVR1]

pushthebutton said:

It's not possible to train ditching in any of the simulators I've ever been in. I suppose if you wanted to you could run the scenario down to the touchdown point, but it wouldn't be possible to replicate the touchdown on water which is the part you'd want to practice.

Nor is it possible to practice total loss of control/deep stall recovery in a simulator either. If only because the sim would have to be programmed with 'guesswork' as to what would happen. You can practice everything up to but not beyond, as you say.

Not quite sure the point of the refernce to BA 038? Well, I am but hey ho. Magnificent BA? Hung Peter Burkill out to dry didn't they, it would seem? A bit of a PR disater.Although I understand he is back with them now?

[Simpo Two]

pushthebutton said:

I suppose if you wanted to you could run the scenario down to the touchdown point, but it wouldn't be possible to replicate the touchdown on water which is the part you'd want to practice.

After touchdown I doubt there's much left for the pilot to do except 'turn off the ignition' and get the hell out...?

[Dee Gee]

It was rare to intercept civilian aircraft other than post 9/11. I remember being vectored onto a track which we thought was exercise traffic during a Joint Maritime exercise. Turned out that it was a BA airliner en route to the Shetlands. None of the passengers would have known but it was a fairly well practiced routine.

[anonymous-user]

TVR1 you're spending a lot of time arguing about airline recruitment and training, simulator programming, airbus operations etc with people who are employed in these areas of aviation.

It just seems a bit odd that you're so argumentative about a topic that you don't appear to actually have any experience or real knowledge (apart from googling stuff) of these subjects at all.

You started this entire discussion by stating you prefer to fly on airlines that employ ex military pilots but haven't really pointed out how you know what % of military pilots that airline has or if you're even more likely to have ex military pilots on your chosen airline than any other airline. Even if you managed to find out which airline has the highest % of ex military pilots (it would still be a tiny minority in the UK) whether military pilots will be doing your flight or not on that day.

You're now even banging on about how accurately you think simulators replicate stalling as though you know all about it.

Do you actually believe an ex military pilot would be basing stall recovery techniques in a Boeing 777 or A340 on what he/she learned 20 years ago in the RAF or on the manufacturer approved recovery techniques the airline had taught and reinforced throughout their airline flying career?

Edited by el stovey on Friday 10th June 00:16

[eharding]

el stovey said:

TVR1 you're spending a lot of time arguing about airline recruitment and training, simulator programming, airbus operations etc with people who are employed in these areas of aviation.

It just seems a bit odd that you're so argumentative about a topic that you don't appear to actually have any experience or real knowledge (apart from googling stuff) of these subjects at all.

You started this entire discussion by stating you prefer to fly on airlines that employ ex military pilots but haven't really pointed out how you know what % of military pilots that airline has or if you're even more likely to have ex military pilots on your chosen airline than any other airline. Even if you managed to find out which airline has the highest % of ex military pilots (it would still be a tiny minority in the UK) whether military pilots will be doing your flight or not on that day.

You're now even banging on about how accurately you think simulators replicate stalling as though you know all about it.

Do you actually believe an ex military pilot would be basing stall recovery techniques in a Boeing 777 or A340 on what he/she learned 20 years ago in the RAF or on the manufacturer approved recovery techniques the airline had taught and reinforced throughout their airline flying career?

Edited by el stovey on Friday 10th June 00:16

Relax.

TVR1 scooped the Euro-Lottery jackpot on Tuesday, bought a CJ1+ on Wednesday, hired a very-recently-unexpectedly-available-ex-Argentine-Air-Force crew to fly it for him on Thursday, and will be spending Friday waiting for the search-and-rescue mob to come and lift them off the hill they tried to smear themselves over on the first flight.

[anonymous-user]

eharding said:

Relax.

TVR1 scooped the Euro-Lottery jackpot on Tuesday, bought a CJ1+ on Wednesday, hired a very-recently-unexpectedly-available-ex-Argentine-Air-Force crew to fly it for him on Thursday, and will be spending Friday waiting for the search-and-rescue mob to come and lift them off the hill they tried to smear themselves over on the first flight.

They probably crashed because he was distracting them by telling them how to do their job and how accurate the simulator physics were. They now have to sit through Friday listening to him tell them all about alternate law on an airbus.

[eharding]

el stovey said:

eharding said:

Relax.

TVR1 scooped the Euro-Lottery jackpot on Tuesday, bought a CJ1+ on Wednesday, hired a very-recently-unexpectedly-available-ex-Argentine-Air-Force crew to fly it for him on Thursday, and will be spending Friday waiting for the search-and-rescue mob to come and lift them off the hill they tried to smear themselves over on the first flight.

They probably crashed because he was distracting them by telling them how to do their job and how accurate the simulator physics were. They now have to sit through Friday listening to him tell them all about alternate law on an airbus.

Exactly.

So I reckon you've got at least 24 hours before he's back here, offering maternal lessons on egg-sucking.

That is, of course, unless the Argies get bored and/or peckish before the rescue effort arrives.

[Chuck328]

el stovey said:

They now have to sit through Friday listening to him tell them all about alternate law on an airbus.

Only because he read my explanation from a week or so back

[TVR1]

Chuck328 said:

Only because he read my explanation from a week or so back

Unfortunately not. A week or so back I was sitting at 36 odd thousand feet having this explained to me, again, in great detail and the problems associated with it, by the resting captain on my flight. I'm sure you will also agree that my point about getting back to actually flying, as opposed to relying totally on flight management sytems is something your industry is, once again, looking very closely at? But they don't really want to 'cause it's too expensive for the only very rare occurence that the pilots may actually need that training. And a very nice circular arguement ensues.

Notwithstanding that. I have offered 'evidence' that my theories where , if not totally correct, at least had a basis in historical fact-according to YOUR industry. Knock me all you like, I don't care. Standing on your high horse and displaying the arrogance that is sometimes evident in your line of work is ok. Ignoring the evidence from your industry on the various points I have touched on, including flight training, deep stall recovery, CRM isn't.....but that's why 80% of all air accidents will continue to be as a result of pilot error? Or is that incorrect too?

Here's the thing. I am trying to put across my point of view. My first comment wasn't 'civil airline pilots are st!, discuss' was it? Some of your responses seem to have gone down that line. I offered to agree to agree, that my opinions and perceptions where formed in a different time and may not be as accurate now. So, in the face of (not so) reasonable arguement from a few of you, I agreed with you, that things have indeed changed. Still stand by the basis of my original statement though.

Now, I'm going to duck out of this backwards and forwards on the basis that I'm starting to sound like SAABY and DEVA LINK in the insurance threads Do me a favour though, this isn't the Lounge so shake hands and drink up!

[TVR1]

eharding said:

Relax.

TVR1 scooped the Euro-Lottery jackpot on Tuesday, bought a CJ1+ on Wednesday, hired a very-recently-unexpectedly-available-ex-Argentine-Air-Force crew to fly it for him on Thursday, and will be spending Friday waiting for the search-and-rescue mob to come and lift them off the hill they tried to smear themselves over on the first flight.

What a ridiculous thing to say.

Actually, it's an Olympic A340 and the pilots were luckily available ex Air India....really really experienced too! I've seen their log books and everything!