Grey Tornados

[tonyvid]

Penguinracer said:

My understanding is that for some of the swept-wing jets (I'm thinking of the Hunter) spin recovery requires the use of aileron rather rudder. Apparently the Hunter's rudder wasn't very effective in a spin. That said the Hunter was one of the few front line swept-wing jets approved for spinning.

I went to a RAeS talk a few months ago and the speaker was the original test pilot and leader at Boscombe for the Hunter. They spent months doing all the spin trials and it was finally approved...until the first operation RAF pilot did it, got it wrong and banged out. They were never allowed to do it again on service aircraft!

[Talksteer]

Dr Jekyll said:

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

If we ever go up against an enemy with decent Air Defence assets and an integrated Radar and Sam system then medium level operations in an attack aircraft would be suicide. I would warrant that were that to be the case a/c would rapidly be repainted for low level operations.

The Americans rarely seem to fly that low, do they expect to be able to wipe out the enemy air defence then go in at medium level?

The American experience in Vietnam was that if you fly down low every bugger with a machine gun can shoot at you. Fly high and while the systems that attack you can be more deadly they are fewer in number and they can be more easily located and attacked.

Most of the aircraft that were under development during Vietnam (this includes the Tornado and Jaguar... they took that long) were low level attackers. It was assumed that SAMs would be deadly and during WWIII a significant number of them would even be nuclear meaning out manoeuvring or spoofing them would have limited effect. Following Vietnam most aircraft have been designed to operate with precision weapons from medium altitude.

Some of the later Russian SAMs are quite interesting, they are very fast which means they may get to an aircraft before an anti radar missile (ARM) gets to them. They may also be able to engage the ARM itself. On the other hand the most recent version of HARM has an active radar seeker meaning it only needs to be pointed in the general direction of an offending SAM site for it to find and attack its target. The other interesting ability of the later Russian SAMs is that some of them are design to engage AWACS and other stand off platforms.

I think it is safe to say that you can't speak in absolutes when talking about engaging someone who has advanced weaponry and that taking a certain level of casualties is likely.

[Simpo Two]

Talksteer said:

I think it is safe to say that you can't speak in absolutes when talking about engaging someone who has advanced weaponry and that taking a certain level of casualties is likely.

Which is why we prefer to shoot up bandits in Toyota pickups instead!

[PaulG40]

KieronGSi said:

PaulG40 said:

Ive worked on both of them! Delta Hotel, a firm fave of mine. What year was that taken?

You have a favourite tornado? Geek! (My favourite Harrier is ZD322 but don't tell anyone).

Pfft, Stacker . Forgot to add ZA447 - previously a Goldstar, Delta Echo 'DE' to that too, was on 31 at the time, now a FJWOEU jet, with Ahem, my name on it

Swing Wing, Dagger of Death, Select 67 and take us to heaven.

[KieronGSi]

PaulG40 said:

Pfft, Stacker . Forgot to add ZA447 - previously a Goldstar, Delta Echo 'DE' to that too, was on 31 at the time, now a FJWOEU jet, with Ahem, my name on it

Swing Wing, Dagger of Death, Select 67 and take us to heaven.

Pfft, dirty brown star.

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

Given the 'incident' on 31 in the '80s when it was a Jag Sqn the epithet 'Brown Star' is probably aposite!

[KieronGSi]

Ginetta G15 Girl said:

Given the 'incident' on 31 in the '80s when it was a Jag Sqn the epithet 'Brown Star' is probably aposite!

Given the fact i was minus 1 years old in 1981 can you enlighten me about this incident?


Extensive googling finds this,

On April 14th 1981 GR.1 XX973 of No 31 squadron crashed 4 miles north-west of Gutersloh, West Germany, after the aircraft entered an unrecoverable spin during an air-combat training sortie. The pilot ejected safely and the wreckage hit the ground 50m from a farmhouse.


Is this the one you mean?

Edited by KieronGSi on Thursday 31st March 02:29

[eharding]

KieronGSi said:

Given the fact i was minus 1 years old in 1981 can you enlighten me about this incident?


Extensive googling finds this,

On April 14th 1981 GR.1 XX973 of No 31 squadron crashed 4 miles north-west of Gutersloh, West Germany, after the aircraft entered an unrecoverable spin during an air-combat training sortie. The pilot ejected safely and the wreckage hit the ground 50m from a farmhouse.


Is this the one you mean?

Edited by KieronGSi on Thursday 31st March 02:29

I don't think that's what GG15G is referring to.

As far as the incident involving an air-combat training sortie, the only common factor would be that there were "bandits" involved. Apparently. Although I understand the RAF no longer formally uses that term. Probably to avoid confusion.

[Simpo Two]

eharding said:

Although I understand the RAF no longer formally uses that term. Probably to avoid confusion.

I expect the Mexicans complained saying it was racist.

The Luftwaffe had parallel terminology; enemy aircraft were 'Indians'.

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

eharding said:

I don't think that's what GG15G is referring to.

It's not.

As a result of the 'incident' on 31 there was a dit that went round the bazaars along the lines of:

"Don't bend down when a Jag mate 's around...."

(To the tune of: "My old man said follow the van...")

Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Thursday 31st March 13:27

[Hooli]

Simpo Two said:

Eric Mc said:

Folland Gnat?

I knew that!


Bet that's the only time I ever know something aircraft related Eric doesn't!

[tonyvid]

PaulG40 said:

Ive worked on both of them! Delta Hotel, a firm fave of mine. What year was that taken?

It was 2006.