Crash at Shoreham Air show

[hidetheelephants]

Eric Mc said:

I don't think ejecting from a Hunter at such a low altitude would have saved him.

What kind of seat do Hunters have? Presumably not a zero/zero.

[Dr Jekyll]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrIzRdcSizM

Same aircraft, same venue, a previous display. Skip to the 45 minute mark.

[9mm]

[redacted]

[SMB]

72twink said:

Here is how my memory plays it - just like SMB and HoHoHo it could be wrong! Excuse the scribbled lines.



Phase 1 (yellow) - a fast, arced pass W-E (maybe more arced than my line)

Phase 2 (red) - a half roll into a large steep turn to the North of the A27, from the crowd line we were looking at the top of the aircraft, this ended with the Hunter heading South.

Phase 3 (green) - Pulling up into a 1/4 Clover or loop with a 90 degree roll carried out on the upward leg so that as he went over the top he was back on the flight line pointing South West.

I had a chance to review bobsurgranny video, this diagram is the closest to the actual flight path shown, strange how those few seconds of the banked turn are missing from memory but part of that is either behind the crowd line or behind the hillside. I probably looked at the pictures I had just taken. What it does actually show more clearly is that loop plus the approach were entirely over open land ( not the a27) , probably done so it was away from buildings and crowd.

[aeropilot]

hidetheelephants said:

Eric Mc said:

I don't think ejecting from a Hunter at such a low altitude would have saved him.

What kind of seat do Hunters have?

T.7 Hunters are fitted with the Martin-Baker 4HA.

[dr_gn]

Mave said:

dr_gn said:

No that's "supra (sic) heated fuel vapour"..."so effectively no control from the single dead Rolls Royce Avon jet engine. The Pilot in the circumstances did amazingly well to level out an 'out of control ' thrustless Cold War vintage jet.."

I'm not sure if the above is a joke, or comment from someone else, or whether it's from the 'expert' himself:

http://julianbrayrecessionbuster07944217476.blogsp...

IIRC he's the same expert who asserted that the RAF never used the Gnat for dsplay purposes...

I wonder how much he gets per quote?

Really? Comparing an engine with reheat on to a non reheated engine to conclude the engine has flamed out? If it's just hot fuel vapour, why isn't the plume going upwards (seeing as the aircraft was dropping, and hot gases rise), rather than coming out rearwards? And if it had flamed out earlier, would he really have stayed inverted and tried to pull out at the bottom, rather than rolling level?

I don't know - it's as if he's never seen an old jet aircraft flying.

[Eric Mc]

NeMiSiS said:

aeropilot said:

hidetheelephants said:

Eric Mc said:

I don't think ejecting from a Hunter at such a low altitude would have saved him.

What kind of seat do Hunters have?

T.7 Hunters are fitted with the Martin-Baker 4HA.

I thought he was still alive.

Nobody said he wasn't. The point I am making is that the seats in the Hunter T7 would not have been very effective at such low altitude and with such a high rate of descent. Older seats have fairly narrow parameters in which they work effectively.

[saaby93]

dr_gn said:

Mave said:

dr_gn said:

No that's "supra (sic) heated fuel vapour"..."so effectively no control from the single dead Rolls Royce Avon jet engine. The Pilot in the circumstances did amazingly well to level out an 'out of control ' thrustless Cold War vintage jet.."

I'm not sure if the above is a joke, or comment from someone else, or whether it's from the 'expert' himself:

http://julianbrayrecessionbuster07944217476.blogsp...

IIRC he's the same expert who asserted that the RAF never used the Gnat for dsplay purposes...

I wonder how much he gets per quote?

Really? Comparing an engine with reheat on to a non reheated engine to conclude the engine has flamed out? If it's just hot fuel vapour, why isn't the plume going upwards (seeing as the aircraft was dropping, and hot gases rise), rather than coming out rearwards? And if it had flamed out earlier, would he really have stayed inverted and tried to pull out at the bottom, rather than rolling level?

I don't know - it's as if he's never seen an old jet aircraft flying.

That's a 4 level removed quote i.e. your aunties sisters second cousin
It's a quote on a page of a supposed expert quoted by a pher, quoted again.
Just be careful with it

[lufbramatt]

hidetheelephants said:

What kind of seat do Hunters have? Presumably not a zero/zero.

Martin Baker mk4 seats are usually something like zero altitude/90 knots airspeed, but the plane has to be the right way up. That's assuming it was operational, lots of older jets have the seats disabled.

[saaby93]

Dr Jekyll said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrIzRdcSizM

Same aircraft, same venue, a previous display. Skip to the 45 minute mark.

Well found. Very graceful at 0.25 speed in firefox
There is some editing as its shown twice in some frames but it comes out of the 'loop' at 46.57.
You can see its not a loop and just as posters here described.

[aeropilot]

lufbramatt said:

lots of older jets have the seats disabled.

Hardly 'lots'.

One or two perhaps (Meteor T.7 is one IIRC, but that's a design issue, not a decision to disable per se)

As far as I'm aware, all the UK airworthy Hunters have live seats, as do the Gnats, Canberra, Sea Vixen, Vulcan (for the two front crew) Vamps and Venoms etc. There maybe the odd JP that doesn't?
No sensible pilot is going to get in any high performance jet with a disabled bang seat.

[dr_gn]

Simpo Two said:

longshot said:

I don't think anyone has posted this.
Interesting pic. Shows the attitude very well.



I sure hope it doesn't turn out to be pilot error.

Wow. The thought that screams to me is 'Why the hell didn't he pull the handle?' Freeze or failure?

Easy to assume he had all the time in the world to make that decision when you're looking at a still photograph.

[Koofler]

aeropilot said:

lufbramatt said:

lots of older jets have the seats disabled.

Hardly 'lots'.

One or two perhaps (Meteor T.7 is one IIRC, but that's a design issue, not a decision to disable per se)

As far as I'm aware, all the UK airworthy Hunters have live seats, as do the Gnats, Canberra, Sea Vixen, Vulcan (for the two front crew) Vamps and Venoms etc. There maybe the odd JP that doesn't?
No sensible pilot is going to get in any high performance jet with a disabled bang seat.

I read somewhere yesterday (but can't find the article now) that they are 'often' disabled due to the cost of maintaining them.

[CAPP0]

dr_gn said:

Simpo Two said:

longshot said:

I don't think anyone has posted this.
Interesting pic. Shows the attitude very well.



I sure hope it doesn't turn out to be pilot error.

Wow. The thought that screams to me is 'Why the hell didn't he pull the handle?' Freeze or failure?

Easy to assume he had all the time in the world to make that decision when you're looking at a still photograph.

Aren't there minimum heights for expected survival? And that looks like it would be below any such spec, although I guess that if you *think* you're going to die anyway, you may as well pull?

[saaby93]

dr_gn said:

Simpo Two said:

longshot said:

I don't think anyone has posted this.
Interesting pic. Shows the attitude very well.



I sure hope it doesn't turn out to be pilot error.

Wow. The thought that screams to me is 'Why the hell didn't he pull the handle?' Freeze or failure?

Easy to assume he had all the time in the world to make that decision when you're looking at a still photograph.

If he can see it's going somewhere where it shouldnt be going, a pilot will tend to stay with it, doing all he can to try to save it

[lufbramatt]

aeropilot said:

lufbramatt said:

lots of older jets have the seats disabled.

Hardly 'lots'.

One or two perhaps (Meteor T.7 is one IIRC, but that's a design issue, not a decision to disable per se)

As far as I'm aware, all the UK airworthy Hunters have live seats, as do the Gnats, Canberra, Sea Vixen, Vulcan (for the two front crew) Vamps and Venoms etc. There maybe the odd JP that doesn't?
No sensible pilot is going to get in any high performance jet with a disabled bang seat.

Yes I was mistaken- would appear that if the aircraft is cleared for aerobatics and was originally fitted with a seat then it should be operational. Would appear that this varies from country to country though. I recall a Strikemaster went down a few years back with a passenger on board, but the seats had been disabled.

Edited by lufbramatt on Thursday 27th August 10:15

[Simpo Two]

CAPP0 said:

dr_gn said:

Easy to assume he had all the time in the world to make that decision when you're looking at a still photograph.

Aren't there minimum heights for expected survival? And that looks like it would be below any such spec, although I guess that if you *think* you're going to die anyway, you may as well pull?

Indeed, it was too late by the time that photo was taken. I should have said 'Why the hell didn't he pull the handle before it was too late?' But as dr_gn says, it's easy to say that now. Perhaps he thought he could make it (as per Saaby's comment).

[dr_gn]

lufbramatt said:

aeropilot said:

lufbramatt said:

lots of older jets have the seats disabled.

Hardly 'lots'.

One or two perhaps (Meteor T.7 is one IIRC, but that's a design issue, not a decision to disable per se)

As far as I'm aware, all the UK airworthy Hunters have live seats, as do the Gnats, Canberra, Sea Vixen, Vulcan (for the two front crew) Vamps and Venoms etc. There maybe the odd JP that doesn't?
No sensible pilot is going to get in any high performance jet with a disabled bang seat.

Yes I was mistaken- would appear that if the aircraft is cleared for aerobatics and was originally fitted with a seat then it should be operational. Would appear that this varies from country to country though. I recall a Strikemaster went down a few years back with a passenger on board, but the seats had been disabled due to local CAA recommendations.

Didn't the passenger survive? The seat fell through the canopy while inverted - or something like that.

[Simpo Two]

dr_gn said:

Didn't the passenger survive? The seat fell through the canopy while inverted - or something like that.

Pilot and passenger survived, but each thought the other had died. It was featured on the TV programme '999'; a friend of mine was in the air at the time and heard it all happening.

[Langweilig]

dr_gn said:

Simpo Two said:

longshot said:

I don't think anyone has posted this.
Interesting pic. Shows the attitude very well.



I sure hope it doesn't turn out to be pilot error.

Wow. The thought that screams to me is 'Why the hell didn't he pull the handle?' Freeze or failure?

Easy to assume he had all the time in the world to make that decision when you're looking at a still photograph.

A failure in the seat firing mechanism? IIRC every bang seat has a back-up firing system.