Bothered about Business Class
Discussion
I recommend not taking any office sponsored trips in business class. I've had several long-haul (UK-Asia; UK-South America; Asia-North America) biz flights over the last few years and now the thought of taking an econo long-haul flight for personal travel starts to make me anxious a good 2 weeks before travel. So anxious that the idea of coughing up my own £3k on a personal biz class flight starts to look appealing. Econo just sucks. Just don't accept any paid for trips in biz. Don't raise your standards.
WhereamI said:
+1
If premium economy was business they wouldn't call it premium economy. It is better than economy but nowhere near business. Think of it this way, on long haul
Economy = a seat in a row with others
Business = a lie flat seat/bed
First = a 'cabin' with doors
I haven't ever flown Virgin premium econo, but I've eyeballed it and it looks like the same standard as the regional/short haul business class of carriers like Cathay or Singapore: nowhere like full long haul lie flat biz, but still a lot better than economy. If premium economy was business they wouldn't call it premium economy. It is better than economy but nowhere near business. Think of it this way, on long haul
Economy = a seat in a row with others
Business = a lie flat seat/bed
First = a 'cabin' with doors
I've flown EVA (Taiwan) premium econo a few times, some flights actually had the old style business class recliner seats nicked out of their old aircraft.
I've also flown "business" on a London-Frankfurt Lufthansa flight. You know what Lufthansa's idea of intra-Europe business class is? Take a standard economy seat, partition it off, block off centre seat occupancy, put up a sign saying "Lufthansa Business Class"......... and that's it!!!!!!!
custodian said:
I hate to disillusion you but that is standard for business class in most European airlines.
Mmm, I almost never take intra-Europe flights. I think the time before this was around 2006 
I must try to generate another Asia office trip. I've been researching the new Cathay biz seat and it looks quite nice
Edited by creampuff on Friday 8th February 20:01
rich1231 said:
Crossflow Kid said:
So where BA call it Club others call it business but Virgin call it Premijm Economy, whilst what Virgin call Business others call first but Virgin call their first Upper which is like Business but then some, bearing in mind Business isn't club and neither of them are Premium Economy?
Thanks for clearing that up.
It was one up from budget and one down from the top, so I make that Club/Business/Premium depending what colour the tail fin is.
And you would still be wrong.Thanks for clearing that up.
It was one up from budget and one down from the top, so I make that Club/Business/Premium depending what colour the tail fin is.
Crossflow Kid said:
There were only three classes on the (Virgin)747 I got on.
Economy, Premium Eco, and Upper.
Which to me is economy, business/club and first in plain English.
'course it's nothing to do with labelling things diffently to make it sound better than the opposition is it?
Anyway, whatever it's called, paying an extra 200 notes not to have someone else's elbow in my dinner, not having to play "bagsy the armrest" and jumping the queue of hen and stag nights waiting to board was money well spent for me.
Virgin Upper Class is not long haul major airline First Class standard; it's just business class standard. Not that I've flown it, but Virgin premium economy looks like the best PE on the market and is equivalent to regional business class on other airlines. Economy, Premium Eco, and Upper.
Which to me is economy, business/club and first in plain English.
'course it's nothing to do with labelling things diffently to make it sound better than the opposition is it?
Anyway, whatever it's called, paying an extra 200 notes not to have someone else's elbow in my dinner, not having to play "bagsy the armrest" and jumping the queue of hen and stag nights waiting to board was money well spent for me.
Edited by Crossflow Kid on Friday 8th February 22:00
So you could say that Virgin on their aircraft have:
- Economy
- A regional business class offering, which they call premium economy
- Full business class, called Upper Class.
Edited by creampuff on Saturday 9th February 08:03
WhereamI said:
I have to say I admire their marketing, they get people to pay premium prices for a decent, but unspectacular service. I've flown PE, I know what it's like and it is good, for a premium economy product. Expensive though, in idle curiosity I've just priced a forthcoming trip to Australia, £2,500 in Virgin PE, £4,500 in Upper Class and £2,880 in Etihad business. Etihad business is about as good as Virgin Upper and more times than not I get an upgrade to First so there's no doubt which I'll be choosing.
Try out EVA Air PE. Was only about 20% more expensive than regular econo when I last used it. But that was a few years, so who knows what the price premium is now. About baggage ( mentioned earlier). Cathay and Singapore are really tight with their biz baggage allowance: 30kg total. BA and Qantas give you 3 x 32kg = 96kg. I've actually shipped some furniture around using the regular BA baggage allowance.
And be nice everyone!
Dr Jekyll said:
You are simply saying 'words mean whatever I want them to mean'.
Economy is economy, BA's Long Haul economy is also referred to as World Traveller. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
Premium economy is premium economy, BA's premium economy is also referred to as World Traveller plus. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
Business is business, BA's business is also referred to as club, Virgin's as Upper class. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
I think PE, like full business class, is not the same regardless of airline. Not all charge the same price, they vary in standard. The BA PE actually looks a bit crap and not worth the price premium charged. Economy is economy, BA's Long Haul economy is also referred to as World Traveller. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
Premium economy is premium economy, BA's premium economy is also referred to as World Traveller plus. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
Business is business, BA's business is also referred to as club, Virgin's as Upper class. Pretty much the same facilities and price irrespective of the airline.
For biz class, Lufthansa do not have 180 degree flatbeds in longhaul biz. BA/ Cathay etc do. Both call it business class, but the BA/Cathay product is superior. If you want, you can fly London-NYC return for only £1000 on Kuwait Air (direct) or Iceland Air. This is half the price of BA/ Virgin. All are biz class. They may even have the same J/C fare booking class: they are not all equal.
Edited by creampuff on Saturday 9th February 10:03
Deva Link said:
I paid £150 to fly back PE from Orlando last year and so felt I'd been ripped off that I went to the trouble of writing to Virgin Atlantic. They never bothered to reply so I posted on their FaceBook page and then they responded within a couple of hours - so there's a lesson.
What didn't you like about it? From what I've seen of Virgin PE, a £150 premium would be ok. RedLeicester said:
I've just come back from 12 days in the US on business. Booked my usual club seats with BA and surprised even myself with T5 efficiency - 12 mins from pulling up in the HeX to being sat in the Club Lounge. Seriously impressive, priority channel is a godsend.
hehehe, I've gone from sitting on the plane to sitting on the bus on the way home in 20 mins flat at Hong Kong airport..... and that was sitting up the back of the plane!Countdown said:
Say 10 trips a year, saving £4.5k each time..... 
At the end of the day it comes down to how much you earn. Money, like everything else, is subject to diminishing marginal returns. Some people pay £300k for a car, £20k for a bottle of wine etc. To them a business class/upper class is worth the premium.
10 trips a year £4.5k a trip which you could potentially trouser......At the end of the day it comes down to how much you earn. Money, like everything else, is subject to diminishing marginal returns. Some people pay £300k for a car, £20k for a bottle of wine etc. To them a business class/upper class is worth the premium.
Given the choice, I'd probably do the daylight flights in economy and the overnight flights in biz, thus trousering £22.5k or half the £45k of the potential total trouser, for flying all econo.
However I only fly longhaul (in biz class) on paid business trips about twice a year and I do not have the option for cashing in the ticket and pocketing the difference, so all biz class it is for work related trips.
There was one time when I was given an allowance to the cost of a biz class ticket to fly from Australia to Vietnam, rather than the biz class ticket itself: I did not buy a business class ticket. I bought an economy ticket for myself. then I bought another economy ticket for my wife and retained the balance as a credit at a travel agent. Then I booked 5 nights in a 5 star hotel. Then I booked another night in a different 5 star hotel for my mum. Then I still had a bit left over so I booked a few nights in the Fairmont hotel in Seattle a few months later on holiday.
Business class is nice, but it is an awful lot of money to pay to save some short term discomfort.
Dr Jekyll said:
We can all give examples of scenarios where business is outrageously more than economy. On the other hand booking at short notice business class can sometimes be cheaper than economy (EG if only fully flexible economy is available but there are non flexible tickets for business class).
You can't generalise about the VFM of business class vs economy. What matters is the price/service difference for the particular flight you're going to take.
True, but in general comparing like-for-like (ticket booked well in advance or ticket booked at last minute), business class is a lot more expensive than econo. You can't generalise about the VFM of business class vs economy. What matters is the price/service difference for the particular flight you're going to take.
An econo ticket from UK-Australia for example is £800 ish year round (perhaps Christmas excluded) regardless of how far ahead or at short notice you book it, if you aren't fussy about airline. A biz ticket on a flatseat airline will always be about £3000. The fare difference will pay about 2 weeks in a 5-star hotel at your typical Asian enroute stopover location.
I'm happy to take business class when my office is paying for it, but I'd be very selective about paying biz class myself.
I used to always fly business class on Vietnam Airlines domestic, but that was a no-brainer as it was only about 30% more than economy and economy wasn't that expensive to start with.
custodian said:
Business on a 777 means you are already seated when all the cattle class board and have to walk past you during boarding. Thats tough as their faces all say "look at that flash b*****d. Tough, but not that tough!
Yet it is also strangly satisfying looking at the econo passengers and they shuffle mournfully past, isn't it?!?WhereamI said:
If your charge out rate is circa £1,000 a day, then being able to leave the UK on Friday evening, arrive in Australia on Sunday morning and be able to function through the following week more than makes up the cost.
Or, if as I was last week, you needed to leave the UK on Friday, arrive in Australia on Sunday and do a presentation potentially worth > $300,000 to your company on the Monday, then being able to function on that Monday is more than worth the cost.
What people seem to miss is that for many people travelling business it's for business, and often it genuinely is the most cost effective, not to mention more pleasant, way of doing it.
Oh yes, all my comments are in relation to travelling in business class for personal trips. I wouldn't be going anywhere over a few hours for work trips sitting up the back!Or, if as I was last week, you needed to leave the UK on Friday, arrive in Australia on Sunday and do a presentation potentially worth > $300,000 to your company on the Monday, then being able to function on that Monday is more than worth the cost.
What people seem to miss is that for many people travelling business it's for business, and often it genuinely is the most cost effective, not to mention more pleasant, way of doing it.
JDFR said:
On a personal level, I hardly ever pay for Business/First and instead use Miles to upgrade.
I'm in the Qantas FF program. If I park my Qantas points (they don't expire) and accumulate BA Avios points while I'm living in the UK..... do you have to book a particular fare class to upgrade on BA using points? eg can you book a cheap economy V fare class ticket and upgrade with points, or do you have to buy an expensive Y/H fare class economy ticket to upgrade with points?JDFR said:
On the companion ticket, using it for a trip to Oz is very difficult
I done some (reasonably half-a$$ed) research on getting BA tickets using points in Club World. Flights to HK seem to be a problem. Qantas still fly Oz-HK, so you should be able to book on Qantas regardless of the end of any codeshares with BA, as Qantas and BA are both OneWorld... except that the BA award flights to HK are a problem. In contrast, going to NYC using BA Avios was not a problem. I've in the past looked at Oz-UK flights using Qantas points. In that case the Oz-HK flight is a problem, but the HK-UK flight was not a problem.
Thanks for the info about upgrading points btw, very useful
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