Coffee machines - whaddaya know?

[uncinqsix]

dave_s13 said:

Why to manufacturers insist on using photos of pale, underextracted espresso in their promo material? It's hardly showing their product in a favourable light.

I second the above comments on the grinder. A good grinder is critical. The Rocky is a common and popular choice, but because of that can be quite expensive second-hand. My one (see pic above) is an Anfim Best, which is not as well known as the Rocky so can sometimes be had a bit cheaper. (it is bigger than the Rocky though - intended more as a second grinder in a cafe than for domestic use).

[Bonefish Blues]

uncinqsix said:

Why to manufacturers insist on using photos of pale, underextracted espresso in their promo material? It's hardly showing their product in a favourable light.

Because most machines aren't bought by people who want that sort of coffee, I guess

[dave_s13]

Bonefish Blues said:

uncinqsix said:

Why to manufacturers insist on using photos of pale, underextracted espresso in their promo material? It's hardly showing their product in a favourable light.

Because most machines aren't bought by people who want that sort of coffee, I guess

That is pretty representative of the consistency you get from that machine so at least it's honest!

I'll look into the grinder situation. Cheers.

[dave_s13]

I'm struggling to justify paying out £100+ for a grinder!

Would something like this give a similar result or is it deffo a case getting what you pay for

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/La-Cafetiere-Electric-Co...

????

[w00tman]

dave_s13 said:

I'm struggling to justify paying out £100+ for a grinder!

Would something like this give a similar result or is it deffo a case getting what you pay for

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/La-Cafetiere-Electric-Co...

????

If you can't afford £100+ for a grinder, don't buy an espresso machine.

The grinder is the engine of your car and the espresso machine the body. If you have the shell of a Ferrari 458 but a 0.90 Daewoo Matiz engine, it will be crap - the somewhat taut analogy is the same for coffee. I'm sure people will say "oh I have this burr grinder from Sum Ting Wong Enterprises that costs £50 and its briiiiiliant, but they are wrong. This comes across as snobbish, but is reality - espresso, especially for home use, is expensive!

[Dr G]

Spot on; if you buy a £50 grinder all you're doing is adding £50 to the price of the grinder you will soon buy to replace it.

[BenM77]

dave_s13 said:

I'm struggling to justify paying out £100+ for a grinder!

Would something like this give a similar result or is it deffo a case getting what you pay for

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/La-Cafetiere-Electric-Co...

????

Get some ground beans from a coffee shop.

[dave_s13]

BenM77 said:

To prove the grinder theory you could pop out and buy some ground coffee.

If you get consistent cups then you know it's your grinder.

I'll try this I think.

I can afford a grinder, I just want to know for sure I'll then be drinking God's own cappuccinos!

[BenM77]

dave_s13 said:

BenM77 said:

To prove the grinder theory you could pop out and buy some ground coffee.

If you get consistent cups then you know it's your grinder.

I'll try this I think.

I can afford a grinder, I just want to know for sure I'll then be drinking God's own cappuccinos!

As long as you use the same amount of coffee and pack it the same each time you should get consistent cups.

If you get good results with fresh ground coffee from a shop then why bother with a grinder?

[w00tman]

BenM77 said:

As long as you use the same amount of coffee and pack it the same each time you should get consistent cups.

If you get good results with fresh ground coffee from a shop then why bother with a grinder?

Ben - this is poor advice. Coffee needs to be ground no more than perhaps 20 minutes before you pull a shot - ideally, just before.

I know this sounds incredibly pretentious but it is absolutely the best way to drink coffee.

You've recommended Starbucks coffee before now, so I'm doing to take a stab and say you are new to home brewing - thats fine. But get some fresh beans, grind them fresh and use a good method of brewing to see a real difference. Forget espresso, go for filter or something much easier. Starbucks beans are muck, and, generally, pre-ground stuff is stale regardless of where it is from.

[Zod]

BenM77 said:

Get some ground beans from a coffee shop.

Every day.....

The freshness of the grind makes a big difference.

[anonymous-user]

While the thread is on the subject of grinding... maybe I can go a little bit off topic.

Something I've been pondering, is how Costa manage to make their coffee taste so bitter and so burnt if they grind their beans pretty much just before they use the ground coffee. Does anyone know?

Are the beans they use rubbish, or are the machines rubbish? It does amaze me how well they are doing, as the coffee tastes like Illy dark roast filtered with a sock.

[w00tman]

RenOHH said:

While the thread is on the subject of grinding... maybe I can go a little bit off topic.

Something I've been pondering, is how Costa manage to make their coffee taste so bitter and so burnt if they grind their beans pretty much just before they use the ground coffee. Does anyone know?

Are the beans they use rubbish, or are the machines rubbish? It does amaze me how well they are doing, as the coffee tastes like Illy dark roast filtered with a sock.

They over roast their beans, exactly like Starbucks and Nero. This removes almost all of the nuances of the beans, but gives an extremely consistent flavour. It's that, simply.

EDIT: Also, generally the chains do not allow their staff to calibrate the grinders more than once a day, and even then they often don't know what they are calibrating to. This means the shot pours to quickly or slowly, meaning it is very unbalanced - to avoid some of the issue around this, over roasting again helps to give a much wider margin of error. To put it in perspective, a good coffee shop will recalibrate their grinder generally every hour.

Edited by w00tman on Sunday 2nd March 22:16

[anonymous-user]

w00tman said:

Dr G said:

The Rancilio Rocky is very good, easy to use and often pops up second hand on ebay.

Given the option always go doserless (the dosers are almost universally useless).

Finally - follow this, ignore the other posts. If you want espresso, you need to spend at least the same amount as the cost of the machine on the cost of the grinder.

I'm sorry but I see this advice trotted out so often and although it's a nice soundbite bite it's rubbish,it depends entirely on your budget, if you are spending £1000 on an espresso machine you don't need to spend that on a grinder, you do need to spend at least £200 on something like the Rocky or even better somewhere between 400-500 on a Mazzer or Macap, anything more and you are into commercial grinder territory which is overkill. Better advice would be if you are on a small budget, do not skimp on the grinder, you will make better coffee with a mediocre machine and a good grinder, than you will with the other way around.

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 2nd March 22:31

[anonymous-user]

w00tman said:

They over roast their beans, exactly like Starbucks and Nero. This removes almost all of the nuances of the beans, but gives an extremely consistent flavour. It's that, simply.

That would explain it, thanks. So they do this so that every cup tastes the same, at the expense of taste?

[Turn7]

Surely if budget is an issue then preground removes the concern of consistancy ?

[w00tman]

Bluequay said:

I'm sorry but I see this advice trotted out so often and although it's a nice soundbite bite it's rubbish,it depends entirely on your budget, if you are spending £1000 on an espresso machine you don't need to spend that on a grinder, you do need to spend at least £200 on something like the Rocky or even better somewhere between 400-500 on a Mazzer or Macap, anything more and you are into commercial grinder territory which is overkill. Better advice would be if you are on a small budget, do not skimp on the grinder, you will make better coffee with a mediocre machine and a good grinder, than you will with the other way around.

Edited by Bluequay on Sunday 2nd March 22:31

It's absolutely rubbish for people who are spending more than £300 on an espresso machine. However its a good rule of thumb for people who are at the Gaggia/Delonghi stage of coffee - £100 ish

The issue with your soundbite is that people think a £30 buzzy grinder is "not skimping on the grinder" if they've dropped £100 on a Gaggia Kube.

It's a soundbite, that's all. If you even know what a Mazzer is, the advice is not intended for you!

Edited by w00tman on Sunday 2nd March 22:57

[anonymous-user]

Turn7 said:

Surely if budget is an issue then preground removes the concern of consistancy ?

Coffee goes stale, grinding it speeds up that process, so using pre-ground coffee will mean less consistent results because it is deteriorating from the moment it was first ground, and more so when you open the packet. Grinding it yourself means you can get it in the machine within seconds of the grind. Whole beans still deteriorate just not as quickly, keep them in a sealed bag and somewhere cool for best results.

[w00tman]

Turn7 said:

Surely if budget is an issue then preground removes the concern of consistancy ?

There is a rule of thumb (and, as mentioned before, rules of thumb are a guide, not a law!) that coffee goes stale when it is green (unroasted) after about 15 months, stale when roasted after about 15 days and stale when ground after about 15 minutes. This is not an exact science (like the grinder point made above) but gives an idea of what you are battling against.

[Flibble]

Dr G said:

The Rancilio Rocky is very good, easy to use and often pops up second hand on ebay.

Given the option always go doserless (the dosers are almost universally useless).

Agreed on doserless - I have a doser grinder and I never use the doser. I just grind sufficient for one cup and empty the doser, which makes it somewhat pointless.

I'm also not a fan of mass market coffee (such as Lavazza) as you have no idea how long it has been sat on the shelf / in a warehouse before you have bought it. It could have been roasted last week or last year.